Fort Garry Horse BCR or 8th Princess Louise Hussars help in NWE

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Thundergrunt, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    This is confirmed by the War Diary for 5th Canadian Armoured Brigade:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    And HQ 5th Cdn Armd Div:
     

    Attached Files:

  3. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here is some more information on the Sherman IB in British service:

    Deployment of Sherman Tanks to British Army

    North Africa

    First convoy with Shermans for 8th Army sailed 15 Jul 1942 with about 300 M4A1 (Sherman II) and M4A2 (Sherman III). By mid Sep 1942 two brigades (2nd and 9th) were partly equipped; by 23 Oct 1942 four brigades (2nd, 8th, 9th and 24th) had 285 Shermans on strength. The brigades on that date were organized as:
    2nd Armoured Brigade: HQ no tanks; Bays 4 and 16 Crusaders in RHQ and A Sqn, 15 Sherman II each in B and C Sqns; 9thLancers 4 and 16 Crusaders in RHQ and A Sqn, 15 Sherman II each in B and C Sqns; 10th Hussars 4 and 16 Crusaders in RHQ and B Sqn and 16 Sherman II each in A and C Sqns
    8th Armoured Brigade: HQ 2 Crusader; 3rd RTR 4 and 14 Grants in RHQ and C Sqn, 15 Crusaders in A Sqn, and 10 Sherman II in B Sqn; Notts Yeo 4 and 16 Grants in RHQ and B Sqn, 13 Crusaders in A Sqn, and 16 Sherman II in C Sqn; Staffs Yeo 4 and 15 Grants in RHQ and B Sqn, 10 Sherman II in A Sqn, and 15 Crusaders in C Sqn
    9th Armoured Brigade: 1 Sherman II and 3 Crusaders in HQ; 3rd Hussars 16 Crusaders in A Sqn, 12 Sherman II in B Sqn, and 9 Grants in C Sqn; R Wilts Yeo 2 and 12 Grants in RHQ and C Sqn, 10 Sherman II/III in A Sqn, and 13 Crusaders in B Sqn; Warwick Yeo ? Crusaders in RHQ, 16 Crusaders in A Sqn, 13 Sherman II/III in B Sqn, and 14 Grants in C Sqn
    24th Armoured Brigade (41st, 45th and 47th RTR) had a total of 2 Grants, 93 Sherman III and 45 Crusaders divided approximately equally among the three regiments, with two squadrons Sherman and one of Crusaders in each.
    24th Armoured Brigade was broken up 1 Nov 1942 and its personnel and equipment distributed among other units.

    Next unit equipped was R Scots Greys, who received 17 Shermans in early Dec 1942; these and 4 Grants were divided between the two heavy squadrons, while the light squadron had 15 Stuarts. In mid-Nov 1942, tanks were stripped from 1st Armoured Division and given to 8th Armoured Brigade. That brigade then had 57 Sherman II/III, 27 Grants, 58 Crusaders, and 4 Stuarts. A Sqn Staffs Yeo received 9 Shermans, while most of the passed-on equipment went to the heavy squadrons of the other two regiments.

    Additional Shermans arriving in North Africa were used to re-equip the 2nd Armoured Brigade, which was completed by the end of Feb 1943. On 26 Mar 10943 it had: 1 Grant and 2 Crusaders in Brigade HQ; 26 Shermans and 20 Crusaders in The Bays; 22 Shermans, 7 Grants, and 21 Crusaders in 9th Lancers; and 19 Shermans, 5 Grants, and 17 Crusaders in 10th Hussars.

    22nd Armoured Brigade also re-equipped at that time, receiving 48 Shermans, 30 Grants, and 60 Crusaders. 8th Armoured Brigade also received some new equipment. On 11 Mar 1943 it had 76 Shermans, 13 Grants, and 62 Crusaders.

    In Feb 1943 26th Armoured Brigade of 6th Armoured Division began to replace its Valentine and Crusader tanks with Sherman IIIs. With the attack at Kasserine, it took back its old tanks, and then returned. By Apr 1943 it was the first unit to have homogenous Sherman regiments, with 61 tanks in each regiment (4 in RHQ and 19 in each squadron).

    Italy

    2nd Armoured Brigade. Originally (May 1944) equipped with Sherman III and V. In Aug 1944 all three regiments received 12 76mm-armed Sherman IIA (one per troop). In Sep 1944 105mm-armed Sherman IB tanks were received, and were issued 6 per regiment as squadron HQ (CS) vehicles. During the winter of 1944-45 the percentage of 76mm-armed tanks increased, and a few VC Fireflies were also received beginning Oct 1944.

    4th Armoured Brigade. Served in Sicily; both regiments (44th RTR and 3rd CLY) had Sherman III/V [so equipped in May 1943].

    7th Armoured Brigade. Issued “slightly used” Shermans upon landing in Taranto May 1944. On 1 Dec 1944, as a typical example, 2nd RTR had 24 Sherman II, 18 Sherman IIA (76mm), 6 Sherman IB (105mm), 1 Firefly, and 11 Stuarts without turrets.

    9th Armoured Brigade. When it landed in Italy, 3rd Hussars had Sherman V, R Wilts Yeomanry had Sherman III, and Warwick Yeo undetermined Shermans. In summer 1944 3rd Hussars gave up Shermans in two squadrons and received Valentine DD tanks. In Sep 1944, 7th Hussars re-equipped it’s A and B Sqns with Sherman III’s modified for DD. (C Sqn later gained Valentine DD’s, and then Sherman DD’s.) [The two Yeomanry regiments left in Oct 1944 and the brigade became a grouping for specialized armour in Italy.] 4th Hussars joined as a Kangaroo unit (A and C Sqns each 42 Kangaroos, B Sqn retained gun-armed tanks). [The Kangaroos totaled 75 Sherman III without turrets and 102 Priests without 105mm guns.]

    21st Tank Brigade. Although equipped with Churchill’s, some 120 knocked-out Shermans had their 75mm guns removed and those weapons were installed on Mk* IV Churchills.

    23rd Armoured Brigade. In Jul 1943 only 46th and 50th RTR had re-equipped with Sherman III.(40th RTR was re-equipped with Shermans by ca Sep 1943.) Portions were converted to infantry before moving to Greece in 1944, but the brigade was re-equipped with Shermans Jan 1945.

    25th Tank Brigade. Before moving to Italy, each squadron in the brigade was given two troops of Shermans to supplement the normal Churchill IVs. In Dec 1944 N Irish Horse (mixed Sherman/Churchill) moved to 21st Tank Brigade. 51st RTR was reorganized with two squadrons of Crocodiles and one of Sherman Crab (mine-clearing).

    26th Armoured Brigade. Equipped with Sherman III’s, each regiment received 6 Sherman IB (105mm) in Sep 1944, and in Mar 1945 the Sherman IIA (76mm) was issued to replace 75mm-armed Shermans.

    -2-

    The armoured recce regiments in 1st and 6th Armoured Divisions were equipped originally with Stuarts and Shermans (4 Shermans and 12 Stuarts in RHQ, 14 Shermans and 10 Stuarts in each of 3 squadrons). By early 1945, 14th/20th Hussars was re-organized with one squadron of Kangaroos and two of Shermans.

    North-West Europe

    It was not until Jun 1943 that substantial numbers of Shermans were received in the UK, as earlier shipments went largely to North Africa. The Firefly modification (primarily on Sherman V) began Feb 1944, and around 600 were produced. Other Sherman Vs were converted for mine-clearing as Crabs; 689 were produced between Sep 1943 and Dec 1944. Sherman III and V were converted as DD; 573 units were completed beginning Apr 1943. (Regiments with DD tanks usually had them only in two squadrons, with RHA and the third squadron retaining normal vehicles fitted with deep-wading gear.)

    4th Armoured Brigade. Originally equipped with Sherman II and IIC.

    5th Guards Armoured Brigade. Equipped with Shermans in Jun 1943; all Sherman V by Jun 1944.

    8th Armoured Brigade. Two regiments (4th/7th RDG and Notts Yeo) given DD tanks prior to Jun 1944.

    27th Armoured Brigade. After leaving 79th Armoured Division in Apr 1943, converted to specialized armour. Originally trained with Valentine DD tanks, the brigade was given Sherman III DD tanks in Apr and May 1944.

    29th Armoured Brigade. Originally equipped with a variety of Shermans, it changed to Comets between Jan and Mar 1945.

    30th Armoured Brigade. Original unit for Crabs from Nov 1943 on assignment to 79th Armoured Brigade.

    33rd Armoured Brigade. Converted from Churchills to Shermans prior to Jun 1944. Converted to specialized armour Jan 1945 on joining 79th Armoured Division (LVT’s).


    Total Shermans shipped to Britain and Commonwealth counties:
    Sherman I [M4] 2,096 production dates Jul 42-Jan 44
    Sherman IB {M, 105mm] 593 production dates Feb 44-Mar 45
    Sherman II [M4A1] 942 production dates Feb 42-Dec 43
    Sherman IIA [M4A1 76mm] 1,330 production dates Jan 44-Jul 45*
    Sherman III [M4A2] 5,041 production dates Apr 42-May 44
    Sherman IIIA [M4A2 76mm] 5 production dates May 44-May 45
    Sherman IV [M4A3] 7 production dates Jun 42-Sep 43
    Sherman V [M4A4] 7,167 production dates Jul 42-Sep 43

    * All or most delivered to Italy due to availability of converted VC Fireflies in North-West Europe.



    Platz, William E. “Marking British Vehicles: A Guide for Serious Modelers, Part 9: Sherman Medium Tanks, Part I” AFV G-2 Vol 6, No 5 (Oct-Nov 1978), 15-19
    Platz, William E. “Marking British Vehicles: A Guide for Serious Modelers, Part 10: Sherman Medium Tanks, Part 2” AFV G-2 Vol 6, No 6 (Jan-Feb 1979), 17-20
    Platz, William E. “Marking British Vehicles: A Guide for Serious Modelers, Part 11: Sherman Medium Tanks, Part 3” AFV G-2 Vol 6, No 8 (Aug-Sep 1979), 40-42+
     
  4. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    It appears that the 105mm Sherman IBs were introduced late to 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade (6th (1 H), 10 (FGH) and 27th (Sher Fus Regt) Armd Regts). These excerpts are from the war diaries of the 6th Canadian Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) for March and April 1945:
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Thundergrunt

    Thundergrunt Active Member

    Dryan,

    Thank you so much for this, I knew I wasn't crazy, I was told on numerous sites I was full of #$%& and didn't know what I was talking about, stop asking stupid questions or no responses at all.

    Sincerely greatful.
    Eugene

    PS. Is there any way ypou would be able to find out the IB allocations for FGH, GGHG and the 8th princess Louise Hussars.
     
  6. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Eugene,

    I have a few known census numbers for Sherman IB's that may be of interest.

    B Sqn GGHG
    T269572 BRISTLE

    FGH ( Sqn not known as yet )
    CT269638, CT269660, CT269668, CT269682

    Other numbers ( Regiment and Sqn unknown )
    T269415, 651, 2, 3, 5, 672, 3, 4, 8, T270849, 52, 53, 56, 60, 1, 2, 3, 7, 72, 7, and T270878

    cheers

    Kevin

     
  7. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    I only have the war diary for the Fort Garry Horse up to 1943 and from May to August 1945. There is no mention there but I am sure the issue was the same as for the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment) as shown above. I only have the Governor General's Horse Guards war diary up to 1943. The text of the GGHG regimental history does not mention the tanks, but a chart for March 1945 shows Sherman 1Bs.
     

    Attached Files:

    • GGHG.jpg
      GGHG.jpg
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  8. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The 5th Canadian Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars) received their Sherman IB (105mm) on November 14th, 1944. Here is the war diary entry:
     

    Attached Files:

  9. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    According to the history of the RCAC by Marteinson and McNorgan:

    "Serving in Northwest Europe meant conforming to the local War Establishments" For the Governor General's Horse Guards, this meant that of their thirty Stuarts, only eleven were retained for the recce troop and seven as ammunition carriers, while the rest were turned over to 5th Cdn Armd Bde. The old Shermans were discarded and thirty-three new Sherman V's were obtained with 75mm guns from 5th Canadian Armd Bde while the 17-pounder and 105's were obtained from G Squadron 25th Armd Del Regt (The Elgin Regiment). The Daimler Scout Cars went to the infantry.
     
  10. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Going through the war diary of 14th Canadian Armoured Regiment (The Calgary Regiment), it appears that they did not obtain there 105mm Shermans until they arrived in NW Europe. Here is an excerpt from their war diary on March 15th, 1945.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Thundergrunt

    Thundergrunt Active Member

    WoW

    That Is Awsome Stuff, I tried to type War Diary on Goole and came up with nothing like what you have that is awesome!! thank you. Dryan and Kevin and Pak I cant thank you enough. Now to find my last bit of headache, anyhelp would be awesome :rolleyes: :salut: wink wink, in helping me locate a picture or describe the markings of the 8th PLH, 1st Hussars and the Numbering of the tanks in the East Riding Yeomanry (mostly looking for C Squadron) I know it is similar to 13/18H but different. I know the 2nd tank of the troop was a firefly so If I knew the numbers or at least the first tank in troop I could go from there. Thanks again with the MkIB's.

    Sincerely
    Eugene
     
  12. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here are some pictures of the 6th Canadian Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars), some with markings.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here are some pictures of the 5th Canadian Armoured Regiment (8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars):
     

    Attached Files:

  14. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here are some of the 1st East Riding Yeomanry, but not 'C' Squadron:
     

    Attached Files:

    Chris C likes this.
  15. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    I have a contact at the 8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars museum. If you PM me I can give you his contact information. He might be able to help you.
     
  16. Hello,

    The fourth photo can't be 1st Hussars, because the AoS '51' lacks the white bar below, plus at that time 1st Hussars didn't have Sherman V. The original caption of the photo (negative number PA-113660) at Library and Archives Canada just says " 'Sherman' tank crossing pontoon bridge over the Seine River near Elbeuf, France, 28 August, 1944. ", but other photos of the same place on the same day by the same photographer identify the vehicles as 4 Can Armd Div (e.g. PA-113662, PA-113663, PA-115488 etc.)
    http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=3396252
    http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=3396253
    http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/pam_archives/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=3401798

    1 - PA-133660 - 28 Aug 44.jpg

    So this must be a Sherman V of 21st Armoured Regiment (The Governor General's Foot Guards), C.A.C., C.A.S.F.

    Michel
     
  17. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Michel:

    The fourth picture of the 1st Hussars Sherman is from the "The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps: An Illustrated History" by John Marteinson & Michael R. McNorgan. It might be best to contact the authors. I am just the messenger!

    I just checked the Governor General's Foot Guard history and found this picture with a different caption.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Dryan67,

    I was correcting the mistaken photo caption in the book, not your post ;) . The 1st Hussars photos you posted are great, and were unknown to me. Unfortunately still no photo showing the turret numbers :(

    Thank you for the photo and its caption from the GGFG history too. The identification of the tank commander is especially interesting. I understand that Major AGV Smith was already the CO of No.1 Squadron at the time, which matches the triangle on the centre of the tool box on the rear hull plate, but the tank number or callsign 'D3' is puzzling.

    Michel
     
  19. From the GGFG War Diary for 28 Aug 44:

    Bde HQ called the Regtl Tac HQ on the field phone about midnight to inform us of an
    O. Gp called for 0030 hrs. Coincident with the departure of the A/O.C. and the I.O.
    for the O. Gp, was a terrific thunder storm. This, let it be recorded, is normal drill
    for the weather to adopt, when O. Gps are called in the middle of the night.
    At Bde HQ wer were told that, rather than ferry the river, we would use a bridge built
    by the 3 Cdn Inf Div at ELBEUF.
    The Regt joined the 4 Cdn Armd Div column to ELBEUF at 0730 hrs. The Seine was crossed
    finally at 1300 hrs. (...)

    Michel
     
    CL1 likes this.

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