Finally! Vindicated!...

The Hurricane won the BoB.

 

Spitfire - without it no victory in the BofB and not WWII.
Typhoons & Mosquitos - kept the Germans at bay in North Africa.
P-51 - without it, WWII would be longer because it saved the long range bombers.
P-47 - without it, the Luftwaffe would have probably have destroyed both the USAAF and the RAF. The superior ground forces would have crused the Allies on the beaches, on the first day. D-Day would have failed completely.
P-61 - (Night Fighter) without it in numbers (which we saw), the assessment was that WWII was extended significantly because the Germans were able to move supplies at night to keep from shutting down their armies completely. This was the post war assessment of General Weyland (USAAF XIX TAC).

He's dissing the Mossy!:wow:
Right, okay, you are fanatical about the Jug. Though i still say the Spit was better. So there! But the Mossy, come on! Kept Germany at bay in N. Africa? Yes, they did, but what do you think they were doing in Europe? They were the ones who went out on nuisance raids when everything else was grounded. The Mossies flew all over Norway and attacked power station and anything else they could find. All at low level! They attacked prisons to release Resistance fighters. They did the dangerous jobs (like the 633 cock-up). The Mossy was an amazing bird! They went in singly or in Vics to attack, then sprinted home, usually with Butcherbirds on their tails. They would dive and jink all of the place (thanks to the wonderous wooden structure) and outrun the Butcher at low levels. The Mossy was spectacular. And as much as my heart is with the Sipt, the Mossy is the only aircraft i would choose over it. Fighter, Fighter/Bomber, Bomber PRU, it did it all! Let us say i shall refrain from dissing your beloved Jug if you don't say a bad word about my beloved Mossy, hmm?
And 39th is correct, it was the Hurry that won the BoB.
Kitty

 

Ignore him Kitty. He repeatedly proves he doesn't know as much as he'd like to think he does. Your Mosquito is a fine aircraft and did it's main job and others so well that for some no other type was considered.

Pathfinders for the bomber force, low level precision bombing, photo recce, night fighter (a real one, not the bomber that Jimbo thinks a night fighter is), and a whole host of other tasks.

 

Ignore him Kitty.
And miss a good argument? I might have to get Jane's out to prove him wrong.

He repeatedly proves he doesn't know as much as he'd like to think he does. Your Mosquito is a fine aircraft and did it's main job and others so well that for some no other type was considered.
My Mossy is a very fine aircraft.

Pathfinders for the bomber force, low level precision bombing, photo recce, night fighter (a real one, not the bomber that Jimbo thinks a night fighter is), and a whole host of other tasks.
Let's face it the Mossy ruled!
Cheers PP!
Kitty

 

He's dissing the Mossy!:wow:
Right, okay, you are fanatical about the Jug. Though i still say the Spit was better. So there! But the Mossy, come on! Kept Germany at bay in N. Africa? Yes, they did, but what do you think they were doing in Europe? They were the ones who went out on nuisance raids when everything else was grounded. The Mossies flew all over Norway and attacked power station and anything else they could find. All at low level! They attacked prisons to release Resistance fighters. They did the dangerous jobs (like the 633 cock-up). The Mossy was an amazing bird! They went in singly or in Vics to attack, then sprinted home, usually with Butcherbirds on their tails. They would dive and jink all of the place (thanks to the wonderous wooden structure) and outrun the Butcher at low levels. The Mossy was spectacular. And as much as my heart is with the Sipt, the Mossy is the only aircraft i would choose over it. Fighter, Fighter/Bomber, Bomber PRU, it did it all! Let us say i shall refrain from dissing your beloved Jug if you don't say a bad word about my beloved Mossy, hmm?
And 39th is correct, it was the Hurry that won the BoB.
Kitty

I wasn't dissing the Mossie. I was relating what Willi Heilmann said about it and he was speaking in terms of a threat. I for one do appreciate a multi-role aircraft. Single role aircraft like the Spitfire were not cost effective (Yes I know a Spit could carry a bomb, but it was not suitable for ground attack as it was vulnerable as the Mustang was).

Heilmann commented that the Mosquito was a huge problem for the Germans in the BofB but it was not advanced sufficiently to keep up with new fighter performance standards. It was an excellent tactical aircraft, but the Mossy was a little on the slow side by the end of the war as it was long in the tooth. When fighters were approaching 500mph, it was toping out around 400mph. It could not defend itself if caught in a fight by German fighters. You can't out run planes that have altitude and slightly faster than you are. A hit and run mission is one thing but a tactical patrol is quite another.

But I didn't think that was a dis. The Thunderbolt was obsolete when used in the Korean war. It couldn't keep up with jet technology as it was not practical. That's not to say it was not a great plane just as it is not to say the Mossie was not a great plane. But everything has a time frame of reference. Today, you would not want to be flying a Mossie or a Jug but in 1942, you would be happy in either one. I was repeating his words, I will see if I can get Heilmanns mailing address and you can give him "what for" if you wish (assuming the guy is still alive). I love the Mossie too! I would "put up with it" if someone would give me one for free or sold it cheap enough.

But you have illustrated the very point I was making. The Mossie relied on its speed, not its dogfighting prowess to be successful during the earlier stages of the war. Dogfighting was not everything as most people think. The Mossie having two engines and two crew members, long range, and high altitude capability made it excellent in tactical bombing, ground attack, night attack, and recce roles. If the US had had Mossies in numbers, just like with the P-61, then the war would have been over because the Germans kept from collapsing in France early on because of being able to move supplies and reemforcements at night. During the day they would lose most of what they moved so they reduced that to mainly night operations. This was the primary conclusion of the post-war assessment of the USAAF retrospectives and the personal opinion of General Otto Weyland.

Dis your Mossie, heaven forbid! Only the Germans wanted to remove the Mossie from the Allied inventory.

It might have been the "quantities" of the Hurricane that won the BofB, but the dominant fighter was the Spitfire. When asked what he needed to succeed, I believe it was Goering who said "give me Spitfires", he did NOT say "give me Hurricanes". To me that's the tale of the tape.

Heavens, no...a Jug fanatic dissing another excellent multi-role aircraft? Let such words never be uttered! You are preaching to the choir here Kitty!

Sure I would prefer a Jug of my own over any other plane. But if you forced me to "settle" for a Mossie, I would get over it in about as much time it takes me to get my Multi-Engine rating. I would find a way not to be "too disappointed". I am flexible that way you know!

 

I love the Mossie too! I would "put up with it" if someone would give me one for free or sold it cheap enough.
Glad to see you have some good taste in there somewhere. Jugs, honestly!

But you have illustrated the very point I was making. The Mossie relied on its speed, not its dogfighting prowess to be successful during the earlier stages of the war. Dogfighting was not everything as most people think. The Mossie having two engines and two crew members, long range, and high altitude capability made it excellent in tactical bombing, ground attack, night attack, and recce roles.
At low levels the Mossy could outmanoeuvre everything but a Hurry and Spit. The wooden construction was so flexible (unless it was a Mk1 which had a nasty habit of coming unglued. Literally) that it could take enormous pressure from areobatics.

If the US had had Mossies in numbers...
So that's why they were constantly trying to nick ours then?

Dis your Mossie, heaven forbid!
Remember this in future young man.

It might have been the "quantities" of the Hurricane that won the BofB, but the dominant fighter was the Spitfire. When asked what he needed to succeed, I believe it was Goering who said "give me Spitfires", he did NOT say "give me Hurricanes". To me that's the tale of the tape.
The Spitfire was something extra special. The engine note, the look of a hunter, the speed. It had everything, but the Hurricane was always the superior fighter in the BoB. The Hurry's wooden airframe was much more maneuourable in the air, making tighter turns and cleaner sweeps that the Spitfire could only dream about. If the Merlin engine could have been mounted in the Hurricane, then we would have had fireworks. However, the more powerful Spit took the Brillcream Boy poster award over the Little Warhorse that was the Hurry. So in reality it was the Hurry that won the BoB.

Heavens, no...a Jug fanatic dissing another excellent multi-role aircraft? Let such words never be uttered! You are preaching to the choir here Kitty!
But we ain't singing from the same hymn sheet.

Sure I would prefer a Jug of my own over any other plane. But if you forced me to "settle" for a Mossie, I would get over it in about as much time it takes me to get my Multi-Engine rating. I would find a way not to be "too disappointed". I am flexible that way you know!
Settle? SETTLE?! Present me with a Jug, a Mossy and a Spitfire with my choice of keys, then i shall take the Mossy any day of the flaming week! Sod the Jug with it's overblown engine, and the Spitfire with it's sexy looks, give me the ever adaptable Mossy with it's TWO, read it people TWO purring engines. Oh yeah, flying coffin it may be, but my God, what a way to go.
'Settle', I don't know, these colonials.
Kitty

 

Heilmann commented that the Mosquito was a huge problem for the Germans in the BofB !
Considering that the first operational flight of a Mossie was in September 1941, nearly a full year after the BoB, might I suggest that Heilmann doesn't appear to have a great depth of knowledge about the Mossie

 

Considering that the first operational flight of a Mossie was in September 1941, nearly a full year after the BoB, might I suggest that Heilmann doesn't appear to have a great depth of knowledge about the Mossie
Cheers mate, i thought htis myself but didn't have time to check Janes for confirmation.

 

At low levels the Mossy could outmanoeuvre everything but a Hurry and Spit. The wooden construction was so flexible (unless it was a Mk1 which had a nasty habit of coming unglued. Literally) that it could take enormous pressure from areobatics.
I think that an aluminum construction would have been far better. Wood is too heavy for the strength it provides. As to the maneuverability, I can’t imagine a win engine having any tremendous maneuverability to speak of. You see, the engines spinning create a centripetal force and resist changing their axes. Two engines, twice the force. It might have had good maneuverability compared to other multiengine planes, but I don’t think there is a twin that can turn with a single engine. Maybe I am wrong here, but I sure can’t imagine it. If it could turn well, it would have to be because of a long fuselage and a huge rudder. It would take a lot to overcome the inertia of and extra engine.

So that's why they were constantly trying to nick ours then?
Not sure what “nick” means. In the case of value of Night Fighters, this was an ignorance going into the invasion of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Normandy</st1:state></st1:place>. Night interdiction was relatively new to the theatre as there was little need for it before then. Nations moved supplies during the day when they had fighter cover. Had they have known, they would have scheduled more production. They had no idea they would possess such air superiority and that the need to move supplies at night would become so vital to the survival of the German. US XIX TAC got only one wing of these which had only 12-16 P-61s flying at a time. This is terribly insufficient to allow good night interdiction.

Remember this in future young man.
I “shan’t” forget it! (do I ever sound British or what?)

The Spitfire was something extra special. The engine note, the look of a hunter, the speed. It had everything, but the Hurricane was always the superior fighter in the BoB. The Hurry's wooden airframe was much more maneuourable in the air, making tighter turns and cleaner sweeps that the Spitfire could only dream about. If the Merlin engine could have been mounted in the Hurricane, then we would have had fireworks. However, the more powerful Spit took the Brillcream Boy poster award over the Little Warhorse that was the Hurry. So in reality it was the Hurry that won the BoB.
The Spitfire was something special. It was the “capitalism plane”. That’s what makes it nice. It was not built by government contract. It was Supermarine’s own investment. I am not so sure the Cane’ was a better fighter than the early Spits either. It claimed almost half of the aircraft shot down but there were twice as many of them as there were Spits. The Hurricane’s could hunt in packs which compensates for a lot. But that sounds like a religious war and I will let you British fight that one out. I like them both and you could “force” me to own either one without compaint.

Settle? SETTLE?! Present me with a Jug, a Mossy and a Spitfire with my choice of keys, then i shall take the Mossy any day of the flaming week! Sod the Jug with it's overblown engine, and the Spitfire with it's sexy looks, give me the ever adaptable Mossy with it's TWO, read it people TWO purring engines. Oh yeah, flying coffin it may be, but my God, what a way to go.
'Settle', I don't know, these colonials.
Kitty
You are one of a kind Kitty! I do think you and I suffer from the same malady “multirola-plana-mania”. I am afraid it is incurable.<o:p></o:p>

 

I think that an aluminum construction would have been far better. Wood is too heavy for the strength it provides. As to the maneuverability, I can’t imagine a win engine having any tremendous maneuverability to speak of. You see, the engines spinning create a centripetal force and resist changing their axes. Two engines, twice the force. It might have had good maneuverability compared to other multiengine planes, but I don’t think there is a twin that can turn with a single engine. Maybe I am wrong here, but I sure can’t imagine it. If it could turn well, it would have to be because of a long fuselage and a huge rudder. It would take a lot to overcome the inertia of and extra engine.
Not sure about the centripetal (is that right?) force, but the Mosquito was surprisingly light. It had a wooden construction, but it was all laminated. Special glues developed for it and strong laminations made it highly flexible and as strong as the alumium Spits. Therefore two engines, light but flexible construction, up to 4000lb bomb load... What more need be said?

Not sure what “nick” means.
Nick/filch/have away with/acquire/light finger/steal.

I “shan’t” forget it! (do I ever sound British or what?)

The Spitfire was something special. It was the “capitalism plane”. That’s what makes it nice. It was not built by government contract. It was Supermarine’s own investment. I am not so sure the Cane’ was a better fighter than the early Spits either. It claimed almost half of the aircraft shot down but there were twice as many of them as there were Spits. The Hurricane’s could hunt in packs which compensates for a lot. But that sounds like a religious war and I will let you British fight that one out. I like them both and you could “force” me to own either one without compaint.
The Hurry's and the Spit's tended to hunt together, Spits high to take care of fighters, Hurry's low and after the donkeys. A deadly team together.

You are one of a kind Kitty!
And the world is truly grateful. Any comment from PP, Oby or Von T shall result in a sharp put down.

I do think you and I suffer from the same malady “multirola-plana-mania”. I am afraid it is incurable.<O:p</O:p
Who said i wanted to be cured?

 

Cheers mate, i thought htis myself but didn't have time to check Janes for confirmation.
He may have said early in the war which I would have assumed was the BofB. Don't slam the guy for what may be my misunderstanding. I am not perfect. No, no, I am not! I know that disillusions many of you but I can make mistakes in theory.

There was one time I thought I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

 

He may have said early in the war which I would have assumed was the BofB. Don't slam the guy for what may be my misunderstanding. I am not perfect. No, no, I am not! I know that disillusions many of you but I can make mistakes in theory.

There was one time I thought I made a mistake, but I was wrong.
I have thought many times i was wrong, but it turned out to be my mistake.
As to the Mossy, if memory serves correctly, and please bare in mind it is now nearly 11pm for me here, so i am a little whacked, the mossy came into widespread service at the start of '42. It quickly took over the role of fighter/bomber and nuisance raider before moving into PRU alongside Spits.
I need to sleep.

 

Not every Spitfire was a XIV or a IX either. What's your point?
I believe what he is trying to say is, you are trying to compare Spitfires which entered sevice in mid 42 (IX) and early 44 (XIV) with an aircraft which saw only a very limited combat service in Europe.

 

quote]Started a new book by Willi Heilmann an FW-190 pilot. Thought maybe they could shed light on the Allied fighter issue. Here are a couple of paragraphs of him assessing the Allied air power:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=624 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>August 3, 1944. The enemy fighter defense was particularly strong that day. But the most dreaded opponent, the fast, well armed Spitfire was not in evidence. Not a single Tempest which was 50 mph faster was to be seen. The V1 had lifted a great weight off our mind. England must have thrown in practically all her fighter strength on the defensive against the German pilotless aircraft in Southern England.
The Americans were far easier game. Unless they were in enormous superiority they lacked the Englishman’s bulldog persistence. Mustangs and Lightnings were in any case no match for the Focke – provided it was flown by an able pilot.
Only the Thunderbolt at great height was something of a headache. It has a high altitude engine with a turbo-supercharger which gave it tremendous performance. Nor could one dive away from this Thunderbolt; its enormous weight combined with powerful engines allowed it to dive like a stone and to overtake the German machines in the shortest possible time.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Was this not exactly what I have been saying all along? The gratuituous "Oh, the thunderbolt was a great bomber and an ok fighter"…I have heard over and over. Humph...great bomber indeed!. I have been mocked for saying the Germans couldn’t touch the Jugs because of their high altitude tactics. But now, vindicated by a German pilot virtually claim for claim. He even points out the inexperience of the American pilots early on in the war were not as effective against the Luftwaffe veterans, yet because of the Jug’s untouchable advantages, it compensated for US rookie pilots. He even talks about the problems with not being able to escape a diving jug because even if you have a distance on it, it can still overtake you. [/quote]
I know this is the first post on this thread, but I haven’t read it before today, and it is a perfect example of jimbotosomes ability to read things that aren’t there.
For example the German pilot is quite clear on which aircraft are the most feared, the Spitfire followed by the Tempest.
The P-47 is only credited with being the most effective American aircraft, and this is qualified with the statement ‘Only a Thunderbird at great height’, ie only a P-47 with a good height advantage was a headache.
As for the statement that ‘he points out that the inexperience of American rookie pilots’, no he doesn’t, he merely states that a P-38 and P-51 were no match for an experienced Fw 190 pilot, because at the time he was writing about there were few experienced Luftwaffe pilots left.



Ps

.Actually the word ‘Indians’ was the standard luftwaffe code word for any enemy fighter for the whole of WW2, it was their version of ‘bandits’ as used by the USAAF

 

I know this is the first post on this thread, but I haven’t read it before today, and it is a perfect example of jimbotosomes ability to read things that aren’t there.
For example the German pilot is quite clear on which aircraft are the most feared, the Spitfire followed by the Tempest.
The P-47 is only credited with being the most effective American aircraft, and this is qualified with the statement ‘Only a Thunderbird at great height’, ie only a P-47 with a good height advantage was a headache.
As for the statement that ‘he points out that the inexperience of American rookie pilots’, no he doesn’t, he merely states that a P-38 and P-51 were no match for an experienced Fw 190 pilot, because at the time he was writing about there were few experienced Luftwaffe pilots left.
The only plane in WWII that destroyed more German fighters than the Jug was the B-17. Your lack of understanding of the very real factor of a pilot's skill to his plane's ability is astonishing. Every WWII pilot book you have ever read stated that very thing but somehow you missed it. I suggest you reread all your WWII air books again.

The reason he said the Thunderbolt at great height is that the Thunderbolts often flew low for tactical bombing of their airfields. He was referring to dogfighting as a very skilled pilot. He even got shot down twice by these wimpy thunderbolts but only once by the indomnable Spitfire. Your ability to read things that arent there is far more amazing than mine. The Jugs were ordered to not dog fight the Germans below 10000 feet because they were not allowed to use the Spit-S manuever (popular in a dog fight) because they dove so fast. There were several scenarios where all of Heilmann's combat scenarios where he was surprised that the Thunderbolts would dog fight them up close, his group always came out on the short end.

Dude, you start comparing the Spitfire to the Jug and drum up stats, and you are going to lose that battle. You should have been satisfied that I said the Spit was a great plane and that the British had the best overall pilots. But there can only be one aspect of adoration to you and it can't be American. Jealosy is unbecoming of you.


Ps
.Actually the word ‘Indians’ was the standard luftwaffe code word for any enemy fighter for the whole of WW2, it was their version of ‘bandits’ as used by the USAAF
Uhh...actually the Germans used the word "bandit" too as he did in the book. "Indians" were the high altitude fighters that were a danger because their altitude (you should know that!). Virtually all of the time those were thunderbolts. If they were not bombing, they were climbing. I suggest you read a book or two by a pilot other than British ones. Maybe then, then kill ratios of the Spitfire will come down and the kill ratios of the P-51 and P-47 will go up. You never know.


Many pilots that have flown both the Spitfire and the Mustang like the Mustang better. It was certainly faster and could fight much much longer and deeper into the enemy territory. Had they have ever developed the two-stage supercharger for the Allison engine it probably would have been even faster than the Jug. It had an armor shield behind the pilot which the Spitfire did not. But the differences in these planes is often marginal and trivial. But the most crutial difference in a plane is its pilot. If you don't know that, nothing else you can say about fighter planes has any meaning.

 

It had an armor shield behind the pilot which the Spitfire did not.
Erm, yes it did Jimbo.

 

I believe what he is trying to say is, you are trying to compare Spitfires which entered sevice in mid 42 (IX) and early 44 (XIV) with an aircraft which saw only a very limited combat service in Europe.
I am showing the fall of 44' to mid '45 the Spitfire XIV saw service in Holland and west Germany. It's primary function was to chase down V1s.

OTH: The P-47Ms were delivered to the 56th fighter group in December. The M module is merely a P-47D with a larger supercharger. I know you are proud of the Spit. It was obviously a good plane. But, don't you think it is odd that in mid-1945 when the battle turned to the PTO, that the RAF abandoned the Spitfire XIV and switched to the P-47N? Doesn't that make it hard to poo-poo the Jug?

 

Had they have ever developed the two-stage supercharger for the Allison engine it probably would have been even faster than the Jug.

Once they built it to RAF specs and put in a merlin Engine, then it became a really good fighter!

 

Erm, yes it did Jimbo.
I can't find any evidence of that Kitty.

 

Brit fighters had armour plated seats. Most squadrons had them put in, even though they weren't officially in from the factory for a long time.