Fighting withdrawal to St.Valery-en-Caux

Discussion in '1940' started by John Lawson, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. Derek Barton

    Derek Barton Senior Member


    51 Medium - 215 (Staffordshire) Bty, 240 (Shropshire Horse Arty) Bty
    1 RHA - RHQ and B/O Bty
    97 Field - 385 (Duke of Connaughts Own Yeo) Bty

    385 Bty was attached to 1 RHA in replacement for A/E Bty who were attached to 97 Field.
  2. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Many thanks Derek, that's right on the money, it's all about the detail and there's loads of it where I'm going in trying to trace my grandfather, his unit and the 51st in general, it's finding it and sifting it that takes the time.

    Much apprieciated Derek

    Kind Regards

  3. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Might have asked this before, but here goes again (I'm noted for banging my head against a brick wall) - Does anyone out there know of any DLI, DoW Regt and Rifles who were transfered into 7RNF in 1939 etc.

    I know it's abig ask but cheers anyway.


  4. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Is there anyone out there who has information with regard to 1st Lothian & Border Yeomanry or 7th Norfolks who each had 7RNF detachments attached to them, I believe on the Southern perimeter of the St Valery defence.

    Cheers. John
  5. chesterflyer

    chesterflyer Member

  6. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Yes I've seen it Chester and good reading it is.

    Once again, reading regimental histories and accounts, it is shown how our county regiments seem to be that in name alone, as on mobilisation so many manning changes took place that perhaps the core of a unit remained, but the majority of places were filled by whoever was available of draughts from all over the country. Just as many British regiments, on return from overseas service, were initially billeted on the Curragh, where they made up their depleted strength from the overpopulated, tough and unemployed of Ireland.

    Quote from the 1st Lothian & Border Yeomanry.

    "During this time, all those under 19 were drafted to the second-line regiment and were replaced by over a hundred trained recruits from the RAC Depot at Catterick. These men hailed from all over England. Other drafts were received from 4/7 Dragoon Guards and Inniskillings and there was a temporary exchange of one officer and 4 other ranks with 13/18 Hussars".

    As we have mentioned earlier, with 7RNF, at the muster of 1939 at Gosforth Park, close to 50% of the unit returned to their reserved occupations and their places were filled by Duke of Boots, Durhams and (London) Rifles.
  7. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    I was looking, recently, at a black and white, wedding photo taken in Ashington on which stands my grandfather, prior to his deployment to France, in 1940, with his Bn, 7RNF (MG). Taking a bit more interest, than usual, I noticed that all the Fusiliers wore a single medal ribbon, 3 vertical bars, possibly Red, Blue, White. My grandfather is listed as a Lance Serjeant and is pictured wearing three stripes, as would be expexted. However, above the stripes in the cleft of the 'V' approx 1" up from the bottom there is a single horizontal, possibly black, bar.

    Any ideas, anyone?

    Thanks in anticipation, John

    PS if I knew how to put the pictutre on I would.
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    John ,
    Any chance you could upload that photo onto the thread.
    Be easier to see what you mean then.
  9. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Is This it:confused:

    Attached Files:

  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  11. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Also, oh no another question, what is the chevron on the left cuffs for? Is it wound or service??

    As the Bn was not brigaded, the black horizontal is unlikely to be the senior Bde, it's too low and not Red.

    And as this was Prior to April 1940 the medal would not be the Defence or War Medal!

    Am I waffling or can you help Owen?
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    John as stated that photo is NOT 1940.

    Medal, uniform & headwear is NOT 1940.

    lower arm chevrons are indeed Long Service & Good Conduct Chevrons or whatever they official called.
    Quickly can only find this link reWW1.
    Ordnance Insignia of the British Army

    Regards the cap...
    "Cap, General Service". It was first introduced under "Army Council Instruction 1407" of September 1943.
  13. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Thanks for that Owen, I'll make investigations as to the date of the photo, good info though. I always thought it was pre-deployment not post. Having spent 5-6 years in a POW camp I'd expect my Grandfather to mlook a bit thinner, anyway I'll get back to you on that one.

    Cheers and Merry Christmas,

  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    As the Bn was not brigaded, the black horizontal is unlikely to be the senior Bde, it's too low and not Red.

    I've seen pics of MG Bn men with 1 single red strip.
    Don't forget as Adam often mentions, colours look totally different in old B&W photos when they are simply shades of grey.
  15. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    I see what you mean Owen, although I thought that the colour of the shoulder title denoted what type of unit they were e.g Red = Infantry, Yellow = Cavalry etc, and that the little bars ID'd the seniority of Bdes i.e one bar most senior, three bars most junior, therefore as they were Corps troops I was unaware that they would have worn these little ribbons.

    I'm still flummoxed with regard to the date of the photo, but I'm on it.

    Thanks for all the info, if a day goes by when you don't learn something, it's aday wasted.

    Cheers Owen
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Another point that makes in not 1940 is the austerity pattern battledress blouse.
    bit of info on wiki here.
    Battle Dress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The so called P40 or Pattern 1940 Battle Dress (also known as "austerity pattern") was introduced in 1942; it deleted the fly front, and the front buttons, as well as the pocket buttons, were now exposed.

    Combover & Fruitcake know abit more than me on such subjects, be worth checking with them.
  17. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Thanks a load Owen. I'm off out now to do some Xmas shopping, more food!!!! for the Missus.

    Bye, John
  18. Combover

    Combover Guest

    Yep, late war or at least from mid 43 onwards. Mid-late war shoulder titles, 1940 pattern BD (which came in from 42 onwards) and GS caps (43-44 onwards). It's definitley from 43 on.

    ETA: Looking at it agin, it's probably from 45 onwards actually due to the other ranks wearing ties and low shoes, which was permitted from very late 44 onwards.
    Owen likes this.
  19. Jen'sHusband

    Jen'sHusband Punchbag

    Not a 1940 photo, unless they're time travellers!

    The BD, low shoes, shirts and ties worn by ORs and the 39-43 Star ribbons point to 1945 onwards.

    With regard to AoS strips, some people did mount them low, some put them in the wrong place and some didn't bother with them at all! The regulation positions of insignia (save, mostly for the order they go in) are to be taken with a grain of salt.

    I hope this is of use!
    Owen likes this.
  20. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Fabulous lads,

    Thanks very much for the detail of information, perhaps Chesterflyer will be able to give me a more accurate date for the wedding. If not, at least I know that it was 45 mmmmmm sometime as all the Northumberlands would have had to have been released from POW camps and then repatriated, debriefed, reissued clothing and then got off down to the church for the ceremony.

    Thanks boys

    Merry Christmas to your all and your families,

    Kind regards, John

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