Field & Cemetery Burials

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Verrieres, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi,I was in Normandy late May this year(2008) we were informed that some of the dead could be buried up to six times before reaching one of the full time cemetaries another reason why some end up scattered in different areas is the availability of Grave Registration teams and grave diggers recruited mainly from local citizens,particularly when clearing a major battle field lorry loads of bodies were diverted to the next available cematery because the teams could not cope with more than their quotas.
    In Normandy I visited Bayeux where my uncle lies .Cpl J W S Gibson Durham Light Infantry killed 14/06/1944.During this time my son and I took other pictures of DLI Casualties Graves if there are any relatives who would like a copy of the relevent grave drop me the details and I`ll see if they are amongst the pictures we took.Sorry DLI only.
    Regards
    Verrieres
     
  2. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Hi,I was in Normandy late May this year(2008) we were informed that some of the dead could be buried up to six times before reaching one of the full time cemetaries another reason why some end up scattered in different areas is the availability of Grave Registration teams and grave diggers recruited mainly from local citizens,particularly when clearing a major battle field lorry loads of bodies were diverted to the next available cematery because the teams could not cope with more than their quotas.
    Regards
    Verrieres

    Hmm - not so sure about that. I haven't found any examples of British soldiers being buried in more than one place, with most being buried where they were in 1944. Or was your source referring to US burials, perhaps?
     
  3. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hmm - not so sure about that. I haven't found any examples of British soldiers being buried in more than one place, with most being buried where they were in 1944. Or was your source referring to US burials, perhaps?
    It would be nice to think that our servicemen were laid to rest permanantly but lets think about it a Soldier/serviceman is killed on the battlefield he is buried by his comrades ,after the battle GRU (grave registration Unit) verify the grave by erecting a cross/grave marker with GRU stamped on the back this signifies that it has been checked.Next the body is removed to a concentration cemetary by the Graves Concentration unit, but not at this time a permanent one as nothing was certain and Victory far from assured and permanent sites had not yet been established.Due to shortages of man power and remembering GRU were not responsible for the actual grave digging which was usually carried out by French labourers it is recorded that a shortage of labour caused bodies to be diverted from Tilly and Hottot les Bagues down into Bayeux.(Men of the DLI in particular).The source recommended a book /guide published by Pitkin titled THe Bayeux Cemetary 1944-45 in it you will find confirmation of the above facts,pictures of British Soldiers graves in local gardens,the exumation of soldiers from remote sites(not pleasant),the setting out of the permanent cemeterys etc.I for one was unaware of the facts or was this just my denial of the inevitable truth ? My uncle was killed in a cornfield just outside of the French village of Verrieres,I appreciated he would have been field buried and I assumed exhumed and re-buried at Bayeux,however the true facts of his burial will never be known,and whilst I agree six burials is excessive, given the facts was it that uncommon certainly two or three burials for most of the dead seems common.Another shattered image I had of my uncles burial was that he would have been enclosed in a coffin of sorts not a grand one just a wooden box , yet the pictures within the book and the accompanying text suggest most were tied in army blankets.If you have the chance get hold of this book it certainly is an eye opener giving an insight into this gruesome task.
    Regards
    Verrieres
     
  4. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Yes, I have the book. However, my own research shows that, as was common practice, most men were buried on the spot, or in battlefield established cemeteries, and the grave marked by the GRU. There doesn't appear to be evidence to suggest GRU had a manpower problem, although in large cemeteries like Bayeux they may well have employed locals to dig the actual graves. Post war isolated graves and small cemeteries were then concentrated by IWGC after the war. There doesn't appear to be evidence the British did that while the war was still on. The Americans certainly did, but I have not come across men being buried in more than two locations.

    As you suggest, most men were buried in blankets, or more commonly on the battlefield, rubberised ground sheets.

    As for graves being diverted, from eg Tilly, I think you will find that these were wartime burials concentrated to Bayeux after 1945, when it was decided where the permanant cemeteries were located.
     
  5. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Yes, I have the book. However, my own research shows that, as was common practice, most men were buried on the spot, or in battlefield established cemeteries, and the grave marked by the GRU. There doesn't appear to be evidence to suggest GRU had a manpower problem, although in large cemeteries like Bayeux they may well have employed locals to dig the actual graves. Post war isolated graves and small cemeteries were then concentrated by IWGC after the war. There doesn't appear to be evidence the British did that while the war was still on. The Americans certainly did, but I have not come across men being buried in more than two locations.

    As you suggest, most men were buried in blankets, or more commonly on the battlefield, rubberised ground sheets.

    As for graves being diverted, from eg Tilly, I think you will find that these were wartime burials concentrated to Bayeux after 1945, when it was decided where the permanant cemeteries were located.
    Hi Paul
    Page 16 1st paragraph Burial and Exhumation refers to the shortage of manpower.The period I refer to is the number of times a soldier may be buried prior to his interrment in a permanent cemetery I do not dispute that once the Imperial War Graves Commision (now Commonwealth) established the permanent cemeterys that our dead were not re-buried. I was referring to the number of times a soldier could be buried prior to this eg Battlefield-Garden-Clearing station (D.O.W)-local church yard and eventually his permanent resting place.Sorry if I did not make this point clear
    Regards
    Verrieres.
     
  6. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Ok. It's all interesting stuff. The photos in the book you mention come from a friend of mine who rescued them from a house near Bayeux.
     
  7. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Ok. It's all interesting stuff. The photos in the book you mention come from a friend of mine who rescued them from a house near Bayeux.
    Those people have my respect we visit the Cemeteries today we see the beautiful laid out gardens..they see whats beneath...Respect!
    regards
    Verrieres
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Interesting if rather grim subject so I've moved it to it's own thread.

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  9. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    The same happened in Arnhem, maybe now reburied that many times, but bodies were taken miles away to be buried at oosterbeek or Renkum, and sometimes taken by mistake by US grave units ,and when it was find they were british brought back or buried at nearby cemetery
     
  10. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I remember my father telling me that he was returning from a Reconnaissance mission in Italy when they came upon a British Tank that had been destroyed and not too many hours before they arrived at the scene.

    It turned out that the crew were know to my late father and his comrades and it was a terrible ordeal burying them before returning back to their line.

    In this particular case the dead were buried where they fell.

    I believe this effected my father for quite some time, although I am sure he would not have shown it.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It was not all that unusual for corpses to be buried more than once - this was the main reason for having two "dog tags" around your neck - and "A" Echelon carrying wooden crosses and spare blankets - one "dog tag" stayed with the corpse - the other went to the squadron clerk for his records.
    The SQMS /SSM usually handled all burials on site - in our case they were then buried at the Canadian cemetery at Riccione shortly after the battle - then in 1953
    when the space was donated by the Italian people, the CWGC cemetery was laid out at Coriano Ridge when 2000 corpses were re-interred there.
    Like all CWGC cemetery's - it is a beautiful spot !
     
  12. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi,
    Tank and Aircraft crews were often unrecognisable and were often buried together that is why we come across two or three headstones linked over one plot.I was told that often when a tank brewed up the fire inside was often that intense that it cremated/partially cremated the crew and often it was only possible to determine who was who by the crew positions.I`m sure somebody can verify or dispell this,whatever was found inside would have been horrific and to come across this scene on a daily basis must have affected them in some way.
    Regards
    Verrieres
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Verrieres -
    This of course is quite true that many bodies were unrecognisable - we were always instructed to remain in our main tasks in action - we would sometimes change places i.e co-driver for driver - w/op for gunner - w/op for commander - driver for gunner etc just to ring the changes and let someone else have a go at shooting up the enemy. When a commander was killed, which was all too often the w/op had to take over as the deadman usually fell over the gunner which made further action difficult. In a battle which lasted one month - we started off with nine officers in the Squadron, at the end we had nine completely new ones - three killed - three wounded and three promoted.

    It was mainly in the Shermans(Ronson's) that we had we this recognition trouble as the Churchill's were slower to burn thus more time to evacuate - it was never easy to collect and bury your friends.
    cheers
     
  14. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi.
    Just to let you know of this site I have visited .This tells the story of a families search for their relative Tom Rodgers(Durham Light Infantry) who was reported as Missing presumed Killed during the retreat to Dunkirk.The family were told Tom was missing presumed killed ,Toms father hoped Tom was a prisoner but at the end of the War Tom did not come home.He had no known grave.It was then that the family started their own search for `Brother Tom` and after all these years they have found him.Acknowledged by the CWGC Tom is lost no more. Please visit, its a real tale of dedication and a tribute to the family.Let me know what you think.
    memories of George Rodgers

    Regards
    Verrieres
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi
    For anyone interested in the other side of the coin heres a copy of a news report I saw earlier this year;-

    A MILLION fallen German soldiers are being reburied more than 60 years after the fall of the Third Reich. And, more controversially, the skeletal remains of thousands of Waffen SS Nazis recruited from other European countries are also being reburied.
    The operation is taking place across Eastern Europe, where more than 15 million civilians were killed by the German war machine. Resentment against the reburial program is running high in many countries.
    So far 520,000 skeletons have been exhumed from mass graves, old trenches and unmarked battlefield graveyards and reburied in properly maintained German war cemeteries. A further 400,000 are due to be exhumed over the next eight years. At least 100,000 will be reburied after that.
    German exhumation teams are recovering skeletons from World War II's largest single mechanised engagement: the Battle of Kursk in the Soviet Union, in which thousands of Wehrmacht soldiers died. Kursk's first official German war cemetery is due to open in 2009. Mass exhumation operations are also taking place at other key battle sites, including Stalingrad (now Volgograd).
    But the reburial project has been dogged by controversy and distrust. In Poland, authorities systematically check the metal name tag of every reburied German soldier to ensure that the names of war criminals do not appear on German war memorials.
    In Belarus and the Czech Republic there is still no agreement covering German military reburials. Indeed in Belarus, where 25% of the population died in World War II, only 2000 of 150,000 German war dead have so far being reburied.
    It took six years of negotiations in southern Russia to allay fears that a cemetery might glorify German soldiers. Finally, permission was granted to build a military cemetery in Krasnodar, in the Caucasus, which will open soon.
    Elsewhere in Russia, controversy has surrounded the reburial of several hundred Dutch Waffen SS men. It is believed the Dutch Government refused to help trace relatives, saying all Dutchmen who defected to the Nazis had automatically forfeited their Dutch citizenship and were therefore a German responsibility.
    The fate of Russian collaborators who fought on the German side in the war is also controversial. It has been impossible to inform their relatives and descendants because the Russian authorities will not acknowledge there was such a thing as Russia collaboration.

    Who said in death we are all equal?

    Regards
    Verrieres
    </BOD>
     
  16. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Sorry forgot to add this picture which accompanied the article;

    Regards
    Verrieres
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gentlemen

    Tom's graphic description of what it was like to be in a Sherman that had taken a hit should be sufficient to dampen the ardour of those who's sole experience of such matters is the playing of computerised war games.

    There is quite a lot to be found on the internet regarding the grisly procedure that took place after the various battles but I am reminded of something that, in Italy anyway, used to take place before a battle.

    One entry in my diary gives me the actual date:
    Sunday 22nd. October 1944
    Through Firenzolia, roads murder as it had rained all night and was still raining. Had to evict eyeties out of house for Major Mouland. Carried set up mountain to try and contact Batteries. Near Div cemetery.


    The Div cemetery referred to was sited on top of a small hill and my unit was sitting some one hundred yards immediately below it so we could see all the activity that was taking place.

    We could see many graves being dug without any evidence that they were being filled with corpses.

    I asked the Regimental padre what was going on and he told me they were getting ready for a battle that was yet to take place.

    I am also reminded of the Regimental carpenter who used to fill his spare time making small wooden crosses for marking temporary burial sites.

    Tom is also dead right about the two identity discs, if I remember rightly, the Green one was left with the deceased while the red one was taken back to the unit as evidence of death.
     
  18. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi
    Whilst going through a pile of photographs from Arnhem I came upon a picture of PTE F W HOPWOOD`s grave ...Hopwood..the name rang a bell but I could not remember why then today whilst clearing some old files I came upon yet another PTE F HOPWOOD the number differs by one digit the original marker shows 1536130 (grave one field buriel)The CWGC burial gives the number 1526130 the date of death also differs the original states 17/09/1944 whilst the CWGC has it as 18/09/1944 there was another Hopwood killed at this time but he was Harry Hopwood 3452213 Para AAC 18/09/1944 he is buried at .JONKERBOS WAR CEMETERY killed on the 18/09/1944.The Pte Hopwood this grave and marker belonged to I believe is Pte Frederick Walter Hopwood son of James and Emily Hopwood; husband of Mabel Hopwood, of Mollington, Cheshire 3rd Btn Parachute Regiment AAC who now lies in ARNHEM OOSTERBEEK WAR CEMETERY..unless you fellows know otherwise but if this is the same man...which details are correct???good comparison photograph anyway!
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Regards
    Verrieres
     
  19. militarycross

    militarycross Very Senior Member

    if there are any relatives who would like a copy of the relevent grave drop me the details and I`ll see if they are amongst the pictures we took. Verrieres

    I have a few shots of Bayeaux Cem graves from my time there in '07. Same offer.
     
  20. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi,
    When I was at Bayeux I took photographes of my uncles grave and those around him from the DLI who fell on the same day...unfortunately I missed some out did you by any chance get any DLI lads whilst you were there?
    Regards
    Verrieres
     

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