Execution of German soldiers

Discussion in 'General' started by Warren F, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Warren F

    Warren F Junior Member

    I have just read of 2 German soldiers executed by other German soldiers after May 08, 1945 while under control (?) of Canadian Army which apparently contravened the Geneva convention. From what I read the executioners were reissued with their rifles by Canadian military forces so the execution could take place.
    Any publications on this or other incidences would be appreciated. Also any more info.
    Thanks Warren
     
  2. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Warren can you post on details of this , thanks
    js
     
  3. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    I have just read of 2 German soldiers executed by other German soldiers after May 08, 1945 while under control (?) of Canadian Army which apparently contravened the Geneva convention. From what I read the executioners were reissued with their rifles by Canadian military forces so the execution could take place.
    Any publications on this or other incidences would be appreciated. Also any more info.
    Thanks Warren
    Hi,
    Cannot confirm or deny this however if anyone remembers the TV series Secret Army which has just been re-run on UK History the last episode in the series ends with a court marshall of a Luftwaffe oficer (Major Reinhardt)in a POW Camp he is found guilty and sentenced to death. The other prisoners approach the Canadian Commander who re-issues rifles (one round only ) for the use of a firing squad made up of other Prisoners of War .All set just after the German surrender ,has the shows researchers come across the same information or is this a coincidence?
    Regards
    Verrieres
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  5. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    Hi,
    Cannot confirm or deny this however if anyone remembers the TV series Secret Army which has just been re-run on UK History the last episode in the series ends with a court marshall of a Luftwaffe oficer (Major Reinhardt)in a POW Camp he is found guilty and sentenced to death. The other prisoners approach the Canadian Commander who re-issues rifles (one round only ) for the use of a firing squad made up of other Prisoners of War .All set just after the German surrender ,has the shows researchers come across the same information or is this a coincidence?
    Regards
    Verrieres

    When this episode was originally shown there was some criticism that a generally realistic series had been spoiled by including such an unlikely event. These comments led to letters to the Press stating that it was based on a true event. The correspondence probably took place in the BBC's listings magazine, Radio Times.
     
  6. DaveW53

    DaveW53 Member

    There is something similar to this in Paul Verhoeven's film 'Black Book' where after the liberation in Holland, Germans are allowed to form a firing squad and execute a German officer.

    Apparently the scene was based on historical event. In Holland, on 13th May 1945, 5 days after formal surrender, the Canadian Seaforth Highlanders supplied a German firing squad with captured German rifles. Two German naval deserters were executed. So there was certainly cooperation between Canadian military and German military units and a reliance on German military leadership.

    The sheer number of German troops presented problems for the allies along with the sudden change of job from soldier to police officer. In fact the Canadians required the German military to remain formationally intact and functional. To achieve this they applied a questionable interpretation of international law. Surendered Germans were held not as POW's but as "Surrendered Enemy Personnel" - this allowed them to largely administer and maintain themselves.

    To read more about this and the chaotic situation the allies found themselves in along with some interesting photos, try the following link:
    http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20issues/CMH/volume%202/issue%201/Madsen%20-%20Victims%20of%20Circumstance%20-%20the%20Execution%20of%20German%20Deserters%20by%20Surrendered%20German%20Troops%20Under%20Canadian%20Control.pdf

    Dave
     
  7. Warren F

    Warren F Junior Member

    Did some more digging. Here is the info...On May 13,1945 2 German Soldiers named Bruno Dorfer & Rainer Beck were executed by the German Army after a court martial held by the German Armed Forces. They were transported to their execution in a Cdn truck driven by the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada and the rifles used were German weapons reissued to the executioners by a Seaforth officer.
    Note the date of the execution, 5 days after the war supposedly ended.

    Any comments? or further info.
    thanks, Warren
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The war didn't of course end with the unconditional surrender of Germany. There was still a problem in the Far East and apprehension as to what the Red Army, who had been allowed to advance too far into Germany, would do next.

    Pragmatism seems to have been the order of the day and the restoration of order in the western-occupied zones of Germany seems to have proceeded in an exemplary manner.

    The maintenance of military discipline amongst victor and vanquished would have been of great importance at that time.

    It is a pity that the lessons learned were not applied to the Iraqi army in the most recent conflict there. A clear example of what occurs when an enemy is completely disarmed and the occupying forces attempt to take over all control.
     
  9. Traven

    Traven Junior Member

    The episode regarding the exectution of the German deserters is documented in Daavid Stafford's book, Endgame, 1945. There were more than just that single instance of executions carried out by German military authorities with the Canadians' assistance. In part this was due to the fact that the Germans did not technically "surrender" their forces in Holland, so they were not POWs. I still find it bizarre, however, that those in the higher command of the Canadian forces didn't just say, I don't give a damn, we're not helping the Germans execute anyone -- if for no other reason, then for the bad publicity (which the policy eventuallly attracted).
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I believe the Allied allowed any death sentences handed down by via 'court marshall' or sorts to be honoured aslong as the sentence was passed before the surrender it was allowed to be honoured.

    Albeit a film but it was mentioned in some detail in the film Black Book.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  11. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Verrieres
    Hi,
    Cannot confirm or deny this however if anyone remembers the TV series Secret Army which has just been re-run on UK History the last episode in the series ends with a court marshall of a Luftwaffe oficer (Major Reinhardt)in a POW Camp he is found guilty and sentenced to death. The other prisoners approach the Canadian Commander who re-issues rifles (one round only ) for the use of a firing squad made up of other Prisoners of War .All set just after the German surrender ,has the shows researchers come across the same information or is this a coincidence?
    Regards
    Verrieres
    Yes , I remember that - to me it seemed so unlikely ......hopefully it was but I find it slightly disturbing to learn that sentences were "carried out".
     
  12. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    There were also numerous examples throughout the war of POWS convening courts'-martial to try their own personnel who had been found guilty of normal breaches of discipline, or more usually treason (passing information to the guards etc.). Doesn't Pat Reid write about at least one in Colditz? And Kretschmer convened one in Grizedale Hall to force another officer to break out in an attempt to reach Barrow and somehow scuttle his U-Boat that had been recovered and brought to port by the RN.

    (IIRC this led to the only incident of the Home Guard shooting and killing a German during the war, as the officer tried to break back IN to Grizedale Hall!)

    It didn't take much knotted blanket to make a noose...
     
  13. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I think it was the first watch officer from U-570 that Kretschmer insisted go and destoy the boat , to restore honour deemed to have been lost - he was killed in the attempt.
     
  14. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  16. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Senior Member

    Hmmm, can tell me anybody why a defeated enemy has to decide anything? Thats indeed a bad point for the Canadian Army.
     
  17. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    What about the German Army ?
     
  18. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Tragic, but I don't really see how the Canucks can be held responsible for this. The alternative would have been to dissolve the German army structures in the Netherlands, with potentially extremely serious consequences for the safety of everybody (Iraq 2003 anyone?).

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/world/americas/04iht-bremer.1.7372961.html

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The people responsible wore field grey and invaded the Netherlands in 1940 (and my grandfather was one of them), they didn't come from Toronto in battle dress.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  19. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Senior Member

    What i mean is that a defeated enemy is only allowed to do things with the agreement of the winner. So they can do guard duties, they can arrest deserters, criminals or else but the decision what to do with them is only at the winner side. So that means if they arrested deserters, the Canadian Army has to decide what to do with them, except the Wehrmacht haven´t told the Canadians that they caught some and executed them somewhere where it isn´t under the eyes of the Canadians.
     
  20. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

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