I've recently read Andrew Wilson's 'Flame Thrower' his memoir of service with Britain's flame throwing Churchill tanks. While fighting in Normandy, he writes of an ocassion when an SS counterattack forces the British back. One Crocodile was imobilised and unable to retreat. When the ground was retaken, Lt Harvey and his crew were found shot dead in front of a wall. Now I've read several times of German outrage at the Crocodile as a weapon of war and that they shot crews they captured. My question is, is Harvey and his crew the only instance? And if so, has this one incident unduly influenced all writing on this subject?
I believe the whole mass execution of flamethrower crews was debunked a while ago on here. Also to say one incident causes distortion is an understatement, I firmly believe that much of what is 'known' on Normandy is mass distortion.
Info here re Crocodiles no specific to your query but very interesting http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/41837-analysis-operational-use-churchill-crocodile-flame-throwers-nw-europe-june.html
There is no Lt Harvey listed in any of the War Crime file titles. If a file does exist the title maybe the name of the accused or the unit. Are the crew listed on CWGC?
Sir, I believe it was indeed debunked as no Lieut Harvey could be found however today I have spoken to a friend who believes this was the man in question, HARVEY, NORMAN EDWARD Rank:Lieutenant Service No:258150 Date of Death:26/06/1944 Age:31 Regiment/Service:Royal Armoured Corps 141st (7th Bn. The Buffs [Royal East Kent Regt.] Regt. Panel ReferencePanel 10, Column 3. MemorialBAYEUX MEMORIAL Additional Information: Son of Edward John and Nell Harvey; husband of Doris Harvey, of Sutton, Surrey. I am told until recently there had been no mention of Lieut Harvey 141st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps (Which I am told is the authors unit?) on the CWGC site being previously listed as simply Royal East Kent Regt ? The Crocodille had a broken track which the crew were repairing? The toolbox was set out in order,the crew were found dead against a farmhouse wall? Just passing on what I was told cannot comment really as I have said before I do not know enough about these matters,perhaps a foundation for a more learned person? Best Clifford
Yes, the Crocodiles were operated only by the 141st RAC, so this Harvey must be the fellow that Wilson is writing about. Without typing out the full passage (pg 49 of the 1984 Bantam edition) those details match too. It's easy for one instance to be fanned into a general 'policy'. It seems from everything else that Wilson wrote that the Crocodiles were quite valuable (only one regt in the whole theatre) so they seemed to always be well supported by gun-tanks and infantry, so in the normal course the crews were not easily taken prisoner. Given Wilson's book was first published in 1956 and he became a defence writer for a major paper, it's unlikely that any major discrepancy in the facts would've gotten by. I did though happen across one 'memoir' where the fellow wrote of being a Commando and after escaping capture, stole an ME109 to fly safely back to England.......
Here is some additional information about known 141st RAC Churchill Crocodiles:- A Sqn STEED B Sqn SCIMITAR – 7 Troop SWORD – 7 Troop BANNER – T173258/H H.Q. CO. C Sqn SANDLING – T173174/H SANDGATE – 13 Troop SUBLIME – 14 Troop SUPERB – 14 Troop SUPREME – 14 Troop Other known names ( Sqn to be confirmed ) SAMOVAR SANDWICH SIDCUP SINNER – T173267/H SKIPPER STALIN STALINGRAD SULTAN If anyone can confirm any more names, squadrons or census numbers it would be appreciated and added to this database:- http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V1.pdf Cheers Kevin
Lots of people on both sides were shot after capture, if they were a crododile crew it could have been simple coincidence.
Unlike some regimental histories, The Historical Records of the Buffs 1919-1948, published in 1951, includes an account of their tinned progeny. Its version of events is a little different: Just as darkness was falling and Lieut. N. Harvey had succeeded in forcing his tank into the courtyard, it shed a track, with the result that he was stranded. Until infantry reinforcements arrived there was no hope of taking and holding this strong-point, and as none appeared before morning on the 26th there was little that could be done. When the time came for the attack to go in, which it eventually did with complete success, there was no sign of either Lieut. Harvey or his crew, who, it appears, had been taken prisoner and marched to the rear. One man, Trooper G. Pepper, contrived to escape ten months later, but of the rest not a word has since been heard. They must, therefore, be presumed to have been killed after capture. GSE lists five casualties for 26 June: 001 GOLDING CH 6295350 141ST 7TH BN THE BUFFS [ROYAL EAST KENT REGT] REGT 26/06/1944 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS 002 HARVEY NE 258150 141ST 7TH BN THE BUFFS [ROYAL EAST KENT REGT] REGT 26/06/1944 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS 003 HODGES RR 6296100 141ST 7TH BN THE BUFFS [ROYAL EAST KENT REGT] REGT 26/06/1944 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS 004 PECK HH 6299030 141ST 7TH BN THE BUFFS [ROYAL EAST KENT REGT] REGT 26/06/1944 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS 005 ROGERS D 6284912 141ST 7TH BN THE BUFFS [ROYAL EAST KENT REGT] REGT 26/06/1944 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS Rogers is the only one with a grave, so it looks like Golding, Hodges and Peck are the balance of Harvey's crew.
Lots of people on both sides were shot after capture, if they were a crododile crew it could have been simple coincidence. I don't know that it was just coincidence. Troops have hated enemy flamethrower users ever since the device was invented. The atmosphere on the British front in Normandy was particularly foul and merciless, and there was a lot of tit-for-tat. Also, some SS troops were operating opposite the British. Put all that together, and you can see why the case of Harvey and his crew could happen.
Interesting thread. My Grandfather was in 141 RAC (The Buffs) in 'B' Squadron - 8 Troop. He was wounded on 27/6/1944 during Operation Mitten. When he baled out of the tank, he was behind enemy lines & I know that he was desperate not to be taken prisoner, because of the threat of execution by the Germans. Regarding the fate of Lt Harvey. Here's an account taken from the Regimental Intelligence Officer - Captain Harry Bailey:- The following is regard a large house and courtyard surrounded by walls, shrubs & trees in the village of St. Manvieu - A German stongpoint. ' There was only room for one tank to flame whilst the rest covered him with fire. At this precise moment Lt Harvey had shed a track in trying to get access to the courtyard, the infantry had disappeared into the undergrowth and Captain Strachan was ranging around pumping 95mm into the houses and bushes. As the C.O. leaned out of his turret to have a word with Strachan a runner came up:- "They've got the company commander now and that's about the last of us". It was patent that without infantry the strongpoint could not be cleared and the rest of the day Captain Strachan spent in trying to find infantry to help him do the job and extricate Harvey' An attack went in the next day and was successful, however no sign of Harvey & his crew were found. My Grandfather's 8 troop consisted of 3 Crocodiles named Spartan, Scot & Saxon.
In World War I German Flame Thrower storm troopers were feared by Tommies and Frenchies alike it was considered the worst sort of death to experience. My great grandfather said of his time in the trenches. Their was a 'unspoken' knowing none were ever allowed to surrender amongst his unit the Northampton Machine Gunners Corps. Infact not many Machine Gunner's were allowed to surrender ever on both sides in alot of cases!
In World War I German Flame Thrower storm troopers were feared by Tommies and Frenchies alike it was considered the worst sort of death to experience. My great grandfather said of his time in the trenches. Their was a 'unspoken' knowing none were ever allowed to surrender amongst his unit the Northampton Machine Gun Corps. Infact not many Machine Gunner's were allowed to surrender ever on both sides in alot of cases!
I think I've found another memoir by a Crocodile crewman. It's 'In at the Finish' by John G. Smith who it appears was a radio-man. Has anyone come across this effort? Does it have anything to add to this thread?
Yes, I saw that! The ones available in the US are a few hundred $$$ too, so I don't think I'll be adding it to my library of British tanker memoirs (about 10 at this point).
I met John Smith in 1997 at Canterbury where he gave me a signed copy of his book. A personal memoir about comradeship, the hardships and the muddle inseparable of war as he describes. He was briefly attached to my Grandfather's squadron and was able to remember him.
Would 4 troop, C squadron, 8th KRI Hussars, 22 Armoured Brigade, 7 Armoured Division, 12 Corps have had Crocodiles? If so I have some obervations.
They fought alongside Crocodiles in Holland, but - as far as I'm aware - 8H were never equipped with them. Still open to observations, though...
