Hi from a new member. My Uncle was drafted in December 1939 and posted initially to 306th I.T.C. from where he was transferred to Black Watch on 28th April 1940. He was then posted to France on 2nd May 1940, the Unit on his Service Record appears to say No.1 I.B.D. He returned to the UK on 16th June - almost 2 weeks after Dunkirk and 4/5 days after the surrender at St. Valery-en- Caux. Does anyone know how and why he was a) still in France up until 16th June and b) still at large until that date? Out of interest on his return he was transferred to the 51st (H) Div. R.E. and remained "at home" until 14th June 1942 when he shipped out to North Africa for the duration. He died in 1946 before I was born. Any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated. malki
If his last posting was listed as 1 IBD, then it is likely that he never joined the Black Watch in the field before the surrender of the 51st Division. Given the chaotic conditions in France at that time, that was certainly possible. Very large numbers of British troops remained in France after Dunkirk in addition to the 51st Division, and indeed some continued to arrive. The "Second BEF" was evacuated to the UK in mid-June after the strong representations of its commander, Alan Brooke. This force included the 52nd (Lowland) Division and the 1st Canadian Division (which had barely arrived before they were ordered home) as well as parts of 1st Armoured Division, the provisional Beauman Division, and a vast array of service units and base details. If you can find a war diary for 1 IBD then you could get more details.
Hi Malki welcome to the forum. First what's his name? Secondly if you post his records it would help in answering your questions Cheers Paul
Thank you so much for the interest shown. His name was James Niven Carlton, Service No. 3318290. I hope I have uploaded a copy of the relevant service record. On his return to the UK in 1944 he appears to have gone " Absent " a few times although he came out in 1946 with " Good " conduct!!! thanks again - malki
Yes, I was looking at those absences, and also at the progressively more severe punishments he got for them. They start with a "severe reprimand" and end with a sentence to a detention barracks, which was no stroll in the park. He was apparently with 1st Black Watch when he first went absent in June, then at 8 Infantry Training Centre in Perth. I have to wonder if he wasn't trying to avoid getting sent overseas to join his unit.
I believe that Drew on the forum has a copy of the War Diary for No.1 Infantry Base Depot BEF up to and including June 1940 (WO167/121). I'm sure that he'll see this thread !
Hi, Do you know if he applied for his Campaign Medals? There is usually a Medal Office stamp on the Statement of services form confirming a date when they were issued. Only shows Africa Star and War Medal entitlement? Would also be an entitlement to 39/45 Star and possibly Defence Medal. Reference to BNAF Aug 43/Feb 44 may indicate service in Italy - thus entitled to Italy Star. Probably more service detail on AF B103's. May be worth an enquiry to The Army Medal office. Regards Steve Y
Hi, Just another observation - are you sure he didn't go to North West Europe in Sept 1944? On the second document you attach above the notes if where he served there is handwriting that I read as "O/S 2.9.1944 - 301 days" which suggests to me that he went overseas that date. The relevant AF B103 ought to confirm. Did you get such forms (probably several pages) from MOD? Regards Steve Y
Plenty of stragglers wandering around north west France at that time. Sean Longden's excellent book, "Dunkirk - the men thay left behind." will give you a good flavour - and a good read.
Hi Malki Many of the 'stragglers' following Dunkirk and St. Valery-en- Caux, were evacuated via various northern French ports La Harve, Cherbourg, St Malo, Brest and as far around the French coast, as L'Orient, St Nazaire, La Rochelle and as far down as Bordeaux. I do not have the dates that the last ships left with evacuee's on board, but I guess another member may well have them to hand. Operation Cycle - http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/operation_cycle.html Operation Aerial - http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/operation_aerial.html TD
The last ships left St Jean de Luz near the Spanish border on 25 June, the day the Armistice came into force. They were three small cargo ships. Two large passenger liners had sailed on the previous day. I have listed the 180 merchant ships that were involved in Operation Aerial - I posted it somewhere on this forum and will try to find where! Here tis: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/18365-operation-aerial-and-operation-cycle/?hl=%2Boperation+%2Baerial
Hi Guys - thank you all very much for your comments; I now have other avenues to follow. Just a few more snippets of information:- He died on 16th October 1946 at home from Tuberculosis Menengitis & Pulmonary Tuberculosis. How he came by these is not known. It is possible, therefore, that he may not have had time to apply for any medals. It is evident that the MOD did not know of his death as the Service Record has further date stamps of 10th February 1954 & 30th June 1959 as "Discharged from Reserve Liability ". As far as Service Overseas is concerned the figure of 301 days appears to be the sum of France 46, M.E. 75 & B.N.A.F. 180. Out of interest what does M.E. signify? He does seem to have been want to absent himself on occasion - not shown on the piece I uploaded are 2 times in 1944 ( at home ) where he received 168 hours detention and 12 days forfeit of pay and then 7 days C.B. and 4 days forfeit. How he came out with a " Good Conduct " character is somewhat baffling!!!!!!!!!!!! ( Again, what does C.B. signify? ) Thanks again for all your help.
Hi Malki, I appreciate possible explanation re 301 days but you omit entry of 1 in year column in ME service totalling 1 year 75 days. In simple terms - ME = MIDDLE EAST FORCE - British forces in Egypt & Libya from 1940 till 1943. Latterly 8th Army. BNAF = BRITISH NORTH AFRICA FORCE - British troops in Algeria & Tunisia from Nov 1942 till May 1943. You often see on army records that troops are designated BNAF well into 1944 despite being deployed to Italy where they should be correctly designated CMF = CENTRAL MEDITERRANEAN FORCE. Did MOD provide B103 forms? You may want to apply for his medal entitlement in the New Year. Regards Steve Y
How I read the 1940 part of his service: He joined 1 IBD on 2nd May 1940 and before he came home on the 17th June 1940 he must have left this unit as them embarked at the end of May. His service records read he came home with the 51st Highland Division, Royal Engineers so I suspect at some point during May he would have left 1 IBD and joined the RE part of 51 Highland Div HQ. You wouldn't have had to have been in the RE to be part of this formation as say a driver, batman etc. There may be further clues in the diary below like No.2 Company not being accounted for... No.1 Infantry Base Depot War Diary for May 1940
Scrub that last thought - Members of the Black Watch were posted to N0.4 Company in No.1 IBD. Edit: Scrub the above comment. There was a major restructure in April and 3 Battalions of the Black Watch serving in France came under No.1 Company, No.1 IBD.
Hi Steve Y I always remember the teacher always telling me to " read the question " - hence me missing the odd year!!!!!!!!!!
