Epsom June 26th

Here is a quote from page 34 & 35 of the same book.
From Oberscharfuehrer Ernst Behrens , 12th SS Engineers.

The following account comes from one of those taken prisoner:

Pelzmann, fifty yards farther on in the camoflagued observation post, was still fighting.
In a semi-circle in front of his camouflaged position were many dead British soldiers.
Suddenly the concealed top of the observation post was opened and out came Pelzmann.
Holding his sniper's rifle by the barrel he broke the stock against a tree.
He then called out loudly:
" No more ammunition! I've killed enough of you-now you can kill me!"
A big red-haired Englander went up to him , seized him by the collar , and shot him through the temple with his revolver.

Your Father was very lucky not to be shot too.
The 12th SS were not very well liked.

As far as I can make out the unit attacking your father's position was 2nd Glasgow Highlanders.
I think that if he had fell into the hands of the Canadians, he might not have been so lucky.

 

The guy in my avatar photo is definitly not my dad. When my father saw the photo he sad according to the star on his collar the guy is an Unterscharführer which my dad was not.

I also showed him the photos/stills from Owens link, but all he said, is that he regognized the landscape and the wheather on that day.

According to my dad, his Kompanie was divided a week before and attached to different other Kompanies, which is consistent with what I read in this book. He said he was captured together with Paul Kuret who was leader of the 2nd Kompanie of the 12th SS Engineers, which would put him right to the north of Cheux as indicated by Owen in his map post.

He remembers that the unit that captured him was the 'King's own Rifles" but I didn't find any such unit. He said he hid in his foxhole until noon and then surrendered. Is it possible that units from the rear already had advanced that much until noon?

I ordered (LCD/212) Kuret, Paul. Obersturm (12th SS Pz. Gren.) Shooting of Canadian soldiers, Mouen 17/6/1944. from the national archives and hope I don't find any ugly surprises in there.

 

Would it be this regiment Baby Fritz? King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Would it be this regiment Baby Fritz? King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi Gotthard,

it may be, but the KOYLI saw action on the 25th further to the west during operation Martlet and they were forced to switch to defensive action pretty soon. It still may be that what my dad remembers as being overrun was the penetration of the King's Royal Rifle Corps into Tessel-Bretteville the next day. Actually the first Zug of his initial Kompanie was dug in in that area, but that doesn't make sense with his memory of being captured together with Paul Kuret the leader of 2nd Kompanie which was definitely dug in north of Cheux .

I consider that memory as reliable because he also remembers when being shiped in for the Channel passage that Kuret uttered: 'The only thing that can help us now is being sunk by German Subs'.

Ole

 

Might also be worth searching the Canadian Public Archive, the photo section can be found here; Search the database - Photographs - ArchiviaNet - Library and Archives Canada

There were tons of photo's taken by Canadian Army Int. Units, including many hundreds, if not thousands, of captured individuals similar to this;


Good luck in your searching.

cheers,

 

The 12th SS may have been treated better had they not murdered our men,and the Canadians prisoners in cold bklood.
Sheer cold blooded murder, That got around the men at the "Sharp end" very quickly So that any 12 SS Hitler Jugend man that was captured intact, was very lucky indeed. For we knew what they had done. In reality, I wonder that any prisoners from that evil fantical Nazi mob were taken alive.
I have a particular loathing for them as they were our traditional enemies. TIme and again the 12th SS Hitler youth. For us they represented all that was the Nazi Regime.
Murderers.
Sapper

 

The 12th SS may have been treated better had they not murdered our men,and the Canadians prisoners in cold bklood. Sheer cold blooded murder, That got around the men at the "Sharp end" very quickly So that any 12 SS Hitler Jugend man that was captured intact, was very lucky indeed. For we knew what they had done. In reality, I wonder that any prisoners from that evil fantical Nazi mob were taken alive.

I have a particular loathing for them as they were our traditional enemies. TIme and again the 12th SS Hitler youth. For us they represented all that was the Nazi Regime.
Murderers.
Sapper

Actualy my father was surprised how well he was treated as POW. The crimes commmited by the 12th SS were no secret in the division. Be assured that my dad is haunted till this day for having been member of such an organization.

Ole

 

The great shame of that episode, is that I would venture a guess that a great many more Hitler Jugend may have been taken prisoner.
For it must have had some influence when the choice of taking them priisoner or not by our men. Specially when they wave a white flag, then up pops another, and cuts you down with Spandua fire.......White flags counted for little after that.
From then on, the white flag men were motioned where to go.

I captured a young Hitler Jugend in a corn Field, Stuck a cigarette in his mouth... hands on his head ...and sent him back on his own.
Sapper

 

The great shame of that episode, is that I would venture a guess that a great many more Hitler Jugend may have been taken prisoner.
For it must have had some influence when the choice of taking them priisoner or not by our men. Specially when they wave a white flag, then up pops another, and cuts you down with Spandua fire.......White flags counted for little after that.
From then on, the white flag men were motioned where to go.

I captured a young Hitler Jugend in a corn Field, Stuck a cigarette in his mouth... hands on his head ...and sent him back on his own.
Sapper

Sapper,
Knowing what you knew and taking the Hitler Jung prisoner was a most Christian gesture. I am sure that perhaps others would not have acted as honourably as yourself.

Can you elaborate a little more on the 'Motioned where to go aspect', and which direction you sent him, to the rear of your positions into captivity, or returned to German lines.

I ask this because I have read accounts of soldiers taking HJ into captivity and due to their extremely young age, releasing them back to the German lines, where they promptly took up arms again to use against the allies.

It is always a pleasure to read your postings.

Tom

 

Hi Tom.
The direction we sent them was always back to the rear to the cage. They would never be returned to the enemy, that is a very tall story.

The reason why we sent them back on their own was simple.You would have to escort them back through the shelling. and then go through it again on return.
NO mate send them back on their own...fanatical ones were taken back.
It was not a Christain act Tom. much as I hated them, when you captured them they were no more than young men like myself. Besides, he was not going to do any more damage.
Cheers sapper

 

Having another read of Taurus Pursuant History of 11th Armoured Division.
page 15

It seemed that in accordance with a German defensive stratagem fully documented in various operation orders and training directive later captured by the allied forces , he had been holding his forward positions in no very great strength; thus the barrage had not greatly injured him.
Suggestive of this fact was the identification of our first prisoners- not infantry proper , but the engineer battalion of 12 SS Panzer Division; for that fine formation was, as had been anticipated, holding the sector in front of us.

So I now think the 15th Scottish Division troops had missed your Dad's trench and he was mopped up by men of 11th Armd Div.

Does this sound plausable?

Owen,

that makes sense, my dad said that he got out of his foxhole at 13:00 (I don't believe he looked on his watch but maybe the time was part of his identification documentation).

What confuses me is that in the 11th Armoured there seem to be two motorized Rifle Battalions:
2nd Battalion, The King's Royal Rifle Corps (Motor Battalion) and 8th Battalion, The Rifle Brigade (Motor battalion), (from Wikipedia) .

In "The 12th SS" by Huberth Meyer there is a more detailed map that places the 2nd Kompanie of the 12th SS Engineer Battalion to the north of the Carpiquet-Fontenay Road, north east of Cheux. (If I scanned it, would there be copyright troubles if I posted it here?). That would put him right in the way of the 11th Armoured.

When my dad refers to the unit that captured him, he points to his upper arm so I think he is remembering their badges. Has anyone photos of the badges of the units in question?

Two toughs on your quote from Taurus Pursuant History of 11th Armoured Division:

- It confirms that many of the prisioners from the SS Engineers were taken in the rear of the first wave or at least they where handled and identified there.
- It sounds like my dads unit was put there as bait to attract the shelling and divert it from the heavier units. That is not a very nice thought.

Ole

 

Might also be worth searching the Canadian Public Archive, the photo section can be found here; Search the database - Photographs - ArchiviaNet - Library and Archives Canada

Good luck in your searching.

cheers,

Thanks, I haven't yet found the photo I'm looking for but I will spend some more time searching.

Ole

 

Sapper,

Thanks for the very prompt reply. It's amazing when hearing yours and other veterans accounts that you survived, albeit very severely wounded.

From what little I gleened from my father over the years, he too was lucky to return from Italy.

We all owe you veterans so much.

Tom

 

Owen,

What confuses me is that in the 11th Armoured there seem to be two motorized Rifle Battalions:
2nd Battalion, The King's Royal Rifle Corps (Motor Battalion) and 8th Battalion, The Rifle Brigade (Motor battalion), (from Wikipedia) .

In "The 12th SS" by Huberth Meyer there is a more detailed map that places the 2nd Kompanie of the 12th SS Engineer Battalion to the north of the Carpiquet-Fontenay Road, north east of Cheux. (If I scanned it, would there be copyright troubles if I posted it here?). That would put him right in the way of the 11th Armoured.

Ole

Ole - must say this is a very interesting thread indeed.

Some more on 11th Armoured here:

11armdiv

Post the map - no-one minds the odd map from a printed book.

 

Owen,

that makes sense, my dad said that he got out of his foxhole at 13:00 (I don't believe he looked on his watch but maybe the time was part of his identification documentation).

What confuses me is that in the 11th Armoured there seem to be two motorized Rifle Battalions:
2nd Battalion, The King's Royal Rifle Corps (Motor Battalion) and 8th Battalion, The Rifle Brigade (Motor battalion), (from Wikipedia) .

In "The 12th SS" by Huberth Meyer there is a more detailed map that places the 2nd Kompanie of the 12th SS Engineer Battalion to the north of the Carpiquet-Fontenay Road, north east of Cheux. (If I scanned it, would there be copyright troubles if I posted it here?). That would put him right in the way of the 11th Armoured.

When my dad refers to the unit that captured him, he points to his upper arm so I think he is remembering their badges. Has anyone photos of the badges of the units in question?

Two toughs on your quote from Taurus Pursuant History of 11th Armoured Division:

- It confirms that many of the prisioners from the SS Engineers were taken in the rear of the first wave or at least they where handled and identified there.
- It sounds like my dads unit was put there as bait to attract the shelling and divert it from the heavier units. That is not a very nice thought.

Ole

Hello Ole,

Here are the cap badges of the KRRC and The Rifle Brigade. I don't know much at all about badges but I think these were current in 1944. There might also be another cloth badge or title worn on the shoulder - perhaps this is what your father is thinking of?

CS

 

Just received this. Can anybody explain me the positions in paragraph IV?

 

Here is the map.

Capt.Sensible,

thanks for the batches. I believe my dad refers to something sewn to the cloth.

Ole