Enemy Sub In The Clyde

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by MaryFM, May 2, 2005.

  1. MaryFM

    MaryFM Junior Member

    Hi all

    My father told me that during the war a german submarine came through the open gate across on side of the firth of Clyde to the other. Does anyone know where I could look to find out about this.

    Thanks
    MaryFM
     
  2. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by MaryFM@May 2 2005, 06:48 PM
    Hi all

    My father told me that during the war a german submarine came through the open gate across on side of the firth of Clyde to the other. Does anyone know where I could look to find out about this.

    Thanks
    MaryFM
    [post=33875]Quoted post[/post]

    given that the Clyde estury was a very busy one even in peacetime then the chance of a u-boat crossing the clyde is remote. also, there are no gates in the firth of Clyde
     
  3. Wise1

    Wise1 There We Are Then

    Not gates as such but were there not nets across there at some point during the war, cant say I ever heard of a U boat coming into the estury though, its not exactly the kind of place a sub would want to be.
     
  4. MalcolmII

    MalcolmII Senior Member

    Is he confusing U47 entry to Scapa Flow and the sinking of the Royal Oak??
    Aye
    MalcolmII
     
  5. Kieron Hill

    Kieron Hill Senior Member

    Hi all,

    The following might solve the mystery. When
    reading this post I got onto the Old Sea Dog
    (my Dad) who has built a few U boats in his
    time and fully working ones at that. When
    he builds these machines I think he goes into
    a sort of role play and research to him when
    building is a must so what better person to
    ask.

    U570 was captured by the Royal Navy and
    was later renamed HMS Graph and after a refit
    went for trials in the Clyde.

    Also there was the sinking of U33 in the Clyde
    by HMS Gleaner - On 12 February 1940 HMS
    Gleaner was on patrol off the Firth of Clyde.
    At 0250 hours a hydrophone contact was picked
    up and traced until at about 0316 hours a U-boat,
    U-33, was seen on the surface. U-33 dived and
    lay on the bottom. Gleaner carried out a depth
    charge attack at 0353 hours but little damage
    was done. A second attack was carried out at
    0412 hours which caused more serious damage
    to gauge glasses, lights etc. and caused several
    leaks. The German Commanding officer, Kptlt.
    Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky, decided to bring U-33
    to the surface which she broke at 0522 hours.
    HMS Gleaner opened fire on the U-boat and
    turned to ram her, firing as she approached,
    but before she could do so the crew started to
    abandon ship. U-33 finally sank taking 25 of
    her crew with her, leaving 17 survivors.

    Could this be the confusion?

    I hope I have been of some help.

    Regards
    Kieron
     
  6. MaryFM

    MaryFM Junior Member

    Hi

    Just found one of my books which is all about The Clyde at War after turning the house upset down yet again, and it states that in 1940 U33 came of the Clyde but was spotted by HMS Gleaner and sunk 5 miles south of Pladda. Before she was sunk she surfaced some of the crew surendered but the Captain and about 20 others were killed. The dead were buried in Greenock and in 1946 a group of German POW's obtained permission to hold a memorial service for the crew.
    The loss of that sub helped the codebreaking effort by the allies as 3 rotors of the 'Enigma" cipher machine were recovered from the survivors.

    The words which escaped me when writing my original thread was boom defence nets which ran right across the river from the tail of the bank to there otherside.

    MaryFM
     
  7. Wise1

    Wise1 There We Are Then

  8. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I used to visit Bute regularly and have heard from three separate residents a wartime story about an incident in the early part of WW2. See for background: Isle of Bute - Wikipedia

    The Home Guard responded to a call from the south of the island (near St Blane's) that a U-Boat had been spotted on the surface, a short distance offshore. The guard responded in the police's only car.

    Upon arrival a rubber boat with several German sailors was spotted rowing back to the U-Boat, which after they got aboard submerged. An officer was aboard the rubber boat.

    A report was made, presumably via a phone at a local residence and the RN informed. The story ended there till many years later.

    The Bute Museum had a visitor who was showing much interest in the WW2 display was asked why so much interest? He was the German officer from the incident! From memory the key part of the display is map of the estuary. See: Bute Museum —

    He explained that he had sailed the Firth on a yacht in the immediate pre-war years (not uncommon before 1939 by many nations to conduct such reconnaissance) , so he knew the area well and was posted to a U-Boat monitoring ship movements into and out of the Clyde estuary (a logical option). Initially they had landed on Inchmarnock (a small island offshore from Bute and evacuated early in the war), to get vegetables, fresh water and kill the sheep left. They had landed at St Blane's on a similar mission. See: Inchmarnock - Wikipedia

    I can understand why in WW2 such an incident would be classified as secret, maybe even disregarded. Then during the 'Cold War' the use made of the Firth of Clyde to accommodate USN & RN nuclear missile submarines, meant any successful, historical German activity in such a then heavily defended area was hardly reassuring. The UK nuclear deterrent remains based at Faslane: 50 years of nuclear submarines on the Clyde

    A good story!

    I was made aware by others that the RN had a listening post, with cables out to sonar in the Firth off the south west coast for many years after WW2, in a cottage on the road south of Scalpsie Bay.
     
  9. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Needless to say this information does not refer to the U-Boat U-33 that was sunk off Arran in 1940. That incident is part of this (2009) book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Action-Stations-U-boat-Warfare-Clyde/dp/1906476071 and this blogsite has a concise explanation: The U-33

    There is a local WW2 history site, which has no reference to this, but shows the importance of the Firth of Clyde which steadily developed as the war progressed: Bute during World War II

    There was a boom across the estuary further up the Clyde, between Cloch Point to Dunoon and with suitable guns in place. At the tip of the mainland there was an Inspection Battery @ Toward Point (easily seen from the ferry to Wemyss Bay to Rothesay). See: Toward Battery | Canmore

    This story refers to a location on the western side of Bute and cannot be seen from the mainland itself due to the hills of the island.

    The Cloch Point features on: Cloch Lighthouse, anti-submarine tethering points 15m north and 10m south west of, Inverclyde West, Inverclyde and has a good overview of the defences and value of the Firth of Clyde.
     
  10. graeme

    graeme Senior Member

    Hi

    The crew are all buried in Cannock Chase German War Cemetery, Block 3, Graves 324 to 346

    Regards,

    Graeme
     
  11. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    In 2018 I posted this paragraph:
    Little did I know that in fact a Soviet submarine, a "hunter killer", penetrated the Firth of Clyde as far as the area off Holy Loch, where at the time the USN had a submarine tender and ballistic missile submarines:
    From the text of a 28m documentary:

    There are parts of the documentary that "don't ring true" and amidst the comments are several by US sailors who were there, plus locals who add to the story.
     
  12. ARPCDHG

    ARPCDHG Member

    Sounds highly fanciful as a story - I can't believe this entrance to a major naval base does not have sonar detectors etc to guard it.
     
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  13. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Agreed, it was 1974 though. I recall some of the comments mentioned SOSUS was deployed locally after the incident. SOSUS being a long range, oceanic sound tracking system and their target being Soviet submarines, especially those with ballistic missiles deploying into distant waters. Yes, as Wiki signals the UK had an involvement. See: SOSUS - Wikipedia Which became public in 1991.

    The puzzle is why in 1974 for both UK & USA was the apparent absence of any listening system in the Firth of Clyde.

    Historically there is information of a UK system in place in the 1940's. See: Secret Scotland - Eerie Port
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2023
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  14. ARPCDHG

    ARPCDHG Member

    Hydrophones were widely in use as early as WW2 - they were on the bed of the Thames in London to detect UXBs falling in the river so I still can't believe major inlets to major naval bases were left unprotected as late as the 1970s...
     
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  15. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Up to August 1940, I have found nothing else in the KTB of the German naval command that suggests special operations in the Firth of Clyde.

    As far as the story with the rubber boat near the Isle of Bute is concerned, there is also the possibility that it could have been a so-called "champagne bet": In other words, not an officially ordered mission, but a (semi-private) feat of hussarism that could later be bragged about in the officers' mess (after winning a crate of champagne for this).
    And that would of course explain why this never found its way into the official records
     
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  16. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I would expect Scapa Flow was higher up the list of defence priorities, when HMS Royal Oak was sunk by U-47 and Wiki refers:
    I was not aware of:
    From: HMS Royal Oak (08) - Wikipedia

    In the 1970's the MoD budget was already subject of spending cuts and a shrinking Royal Navy. So, I can believe decision-makers may have neglected to maintain, if not install modern hydrophones.

    I leave aside that a Russian SSN could infiltrate the Clyde. Perhaps Glasgow then was a fully working port, by time of my visits it was rare to see a freighter going up-river.
     

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