Effects of the urban terrain on Operation Market Garden

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Tim Comer, Sep 4, 2021.

  1. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place.... Patron

    I Have a suspicion that the lessons from Ortona were at a different level of command than the tactical material in battle drills.

    The typical contents of "Street fighting" training were in moving in an urban landscape - everyone crosses the street at the same time - move though the houses by mouseholing; fighting - position back from wondows - prepargin the battlefield etc.

    Ortona was fighting as a division in a whole town - role of engineers, artillery, armour and anti tank guns. Grouping of combat teams etc.
     
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  2. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    One example, after much digging out of books, of C and D companies, 2nd (Airborne) Battalion The South Staffordshire Regiment, sometime in October 1942. I would be nigh-on certain that this reference would have initially been found within the Battalion's war diary.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.

    By Land Sea and Air cover.jpg

    By Land Sea and Air page 16.jpg
     
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  3. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Hello stolpi, maybe from here?

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.

    ARNHEM MAJ GEN R E URQUHART CB DSO cover.jpg

    ARNHEM MAJ GEN R E URQUHART CB DSO page 199.jpg

    ARNHEM MAJ GEN R E URQUHART CB DSO page 200.jpg

    ARNHEM MAJ GEN R E URQUHART CB DSO page 201.jpg
     
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  4. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Ortona appears in several places. This is the main thread: Lessons in Urban Warfare - Ortona

    Note the Ortona thread in Post 12 has a WW2 British Army urban fighting video: 'URBAN WARFARE WW2 - Fighting In Built Up Areas Documentary - Part 2' from 2010. The other two parts are available, Part 1 defending Calais in 1940 and Part 3 taking Goch in March 1945; search You Tube with the full title.

    Elsewhere there is a long thread on urban / city warfare, mainly contemporary and very American. Three posts may be of value: 186, 192 pointer US Army Modern Warfare Institute resources (not looked at) and 195. See: Urban / City Warfare (merged thread)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
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  5. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Hello Tim, please see the book pages within previous post here; Effects of the urban terrain on Operation Market Garden

    And albeit being very much from the Market side of Market -Garden, it covers much of what you have raised above.

    Also, my advice would be to seek out personal accounts from all sides (as many of the good folks posting above have already suggested) as if you are defining "urban terrain" as encompassing noncombatants (local population), infrastructure (e.g. buildings, roads, railways), restrictions on rules of engagement, detection/observation/engagement ranges, avenues of approach, freedom of movement and maneuver (both mechanised and on foot), communications (working or otherwise) and any logistical requirements associated with all of the above, they will be instanced in personal accounts.

    The information is out there, and WW2 folks will always help where they can. And with due deference and reverence to horsapassenger, an example below that covers much of the defined parameters above (Every man an emperor!)

    Good luck with your searching and kind regards, always,

    Jim.

    (below from "By Land, Sea, and Air", by Alexander Junier, Bart Smulders, and Jaap Korsloot, published 2003)

    By Land Sea and Air page 116.jpg

    By Land Sea and Air page 117.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  6. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    After much digging, some titles that may be of help (beyond finding them, the real donkey work is reading through them!)

    I'm sure there's a thread somewhere within WW2 Talk that lists Market-Garden related book titles, but as of yet my searching has failed to find it.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.

    ARNHEM SOME BOOK SOURCES.jpg
     
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  7. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  8. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place.... Patron

    Wonderful! I have been looking for this for ages. In 1980 I booked some training films for education and amusement while we mounted a site guard, "some where in Germany" . This was the one with the most comic value. It was called "Street Fighting" and the enemy were represented by swastikas.
    :D
    It shows how little thought had been given to the subject since 1945.
     
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  9. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    So many books on Arnhem but in terms of physical geography the only real features I can think of that frequently that get mentioned are the high ground of the Westerbouwing, the Railway Embankment (Wolfheze to Oosterbeek area), Hackett's Hollow, the high ground at Den Brink and the high/low road at the "Museum", so it would be interesting to read something that looks at this aspect of the battle in more depth. "Arnhem Their Final Hours" has a good cross section of the area around the "Museum" to show the different heights the different Battalions attacked on 77 years ago today and it gives an idea of the dominance of some positions, restrictiveness of others.
     
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  10. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Citing Sheldrake in part:
    Not so long ago the British Army ran a street fighting exercise, around a tower block in Southampton and according to a public report they nearly ran out of ammunition. So, did that ever happen at Arnhem?
     
  11. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Might this new YouTube film 'Western Arnhem - An Area Too far' help? It was recorded live today by a Dutchman. The intro:
    Link:
    The Dutchman: Edwin Popken https://battlefielddiscovery.nl/
     
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  12. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Well reminded, I'd forgotten that was on today so will give it a watch now, always good to see Woody's stuff on WW2TV
     
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  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I believe it particularly affected the para bns moving into Arnhem. Conversely, 2nd Bn owes its 'success' to the two unsung heroes of the RASC who got a lorry-load of ammunition through to the bridge.
     
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  14. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

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