Early LCTs used at Dunkirk?

Discussion in '1940' started by Mike L, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    An interesting comment from a fellow LCT researcher:

    'Found a ref to there being prototype landing craft with brow ramps that were capable of carrying tanks being used at Dunkirk. It was in a popular type periodical written over 30 years ago without any back up or sources given for anything so stuffed if I know where they got the info from.'

    So has anyone heard about this before?
    The earliest LCTs I know of were Mk1 LCTs or 'A-lighters' developed at Churchills behest and used for the first time in Med ops in Africa and Greece/Crete in 1941:unsure:.

    Any help gratefully received.

    Mike
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  3. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Blimey Owen, so quick and (wipes egg off face) I think I saw that, or a similar picture before. Could even have been on that thread!

    Cheers mate.

    Mike
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I'm sure on one of Drew's millions of posts on Dunkirk I read about Landing craft being used in the evacuation.
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Drew may have the definitive answer as I think he has this book. As luck would have it, 'look inside' allows you to see the appendix listing all the ships, but not link to it. There were some MLCs there:

    LCTs (TLCs initially) postdated Dunkirk.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Noel Burgess

    Noel Burgess Senior Member

    I believe that the original quote would refer to the MLC (later LCM Mk1) as mentioned by Idler.
    Noel
     
  7. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Yes - this is the problem chaps.
    I have never understood the designation LCM (and variants on that) Landing Craft Mechanical? Mechanised (as in Mechanised Infantry?) and what differentiates a LCT (or possibly earlier TLC).
    In any event it doesen't really answer the question:
    were they used at Dunkirk?
    and if not.....if they existed, why not?
    I am hoping Drew can come up with some obscure reference or source that might shed some light or at least give a few clues.

    Mike
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I think it's safe to say that TLC/LCT (the same thing, the terminology changed) were not used at Dunkirk. MLC (which were capable of carrying some contemporary tanks) were used at Dunkirk.

    The pre-war MLCs of varying design (Motor Landing Craft initially, later Mechanised Landing Craft, then Landing Craft Mechanised) were numbered:
    MLC 1 (1926)
    MLC 10 (c1927)
    MLC 11-12 (1935)
    MLC 14-19 (completed 1939)

    The first 50 LCM Mk1 weren't ordered until October 1940. The book I've got open implies that MLC 20 was the LCM Mk1 prototype. What's interesting is that the official history has MLCs 21 & 22 listed as serving at Dunkirk. It's possible that these were other pre-production models; that would need some deeper digging.

    Originally, the M stood for 'Motor', I believe to reflect that it was a powered craft. The later 'Mechanised' appears to relate more to the payload.

    To further confuse the issue, the prototype assault landing craft (ALC, later LCA) were actually called MLC 50 and MLC 51.

    One reason that more landing craft were not used at Dunkirk is that the remainder were already being used offensively and landing tanks in the Narvik campaign.
     
  9. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Idler, that makes a lot of sense mate. If you don't mind me asking what is 'the book I've got open'?
    I have looked in Lund and Ludlam's 'The war of the Landing Craft' and it covers Norway ops but no mention I can find of Dunkirk. As you say - 'some deeper digging' needed.

    Mike
     
  10. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Don't know if this helps?



    "One of the few deep-sea ships involved was Clan Line's CLAN MACALISTER, which had arrived on 29 May with eight assault craft. Because of her deep draft the vessel was anchored well clear of the beaches. While she was discharging ALC 4 the destroyer VANQUISHER passed at speed, causing the Clan boat to roll. The assault craft crashed down on ALC 18, which was afloat alongside, making both craft unfit for service. The other six, and one towed across by the CITY OF CHRISTCHURCH, transported several thousand troops between them. CLAN MACALISTER then started loading troops, but was attacked and set on fire. The destroyer MALCOLM took off some of the troops, and the wounded crew members; the PANGBOURNE rescued the rest. CLAN MACALISTER burned for days and was repeatedly attacked by the Luftwaffe."
     
  11. idler

    idler GeneralList

    It does: the use of Clan Macalister is mentioned in Fergusson's The Watery Maze. It wasn't a Landing Ship Infantry, but was taken over to transport the ALCs across to Dunkirk (they'd been designed to fit passenger lifeboat davits).

    He goes on to say that one LCM went to Dunkirk and earned it keep but was scuttled on its return. It is implied that this was an LCM Mk1 as he refers to the pre-war ones as MLCs.

    His figures for what was at Narvik are: 4x LCA, 1x LCM and five 'old outmoded Motor Landing Craft'.
     
  12. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Sorry I didn't unearth anything about LCMs etc at Norway, I do have the following in an earlier paragraph about Dynamo:



    At Deal the YEWDALE stored and topped up with fresh water. She returned to Dunkirk with the smaller motor ships BEAL and BULLFINCH (GSNC). They anchored off the beach at about 0400 on 29 May and used their lifeboats to ferry troops from the shore. One of the YEWDALE'S seaman, George McKenzie, aged 16, did great work teaching the soldiers how to row. Later the Royal Navy helped with the flat-bottomed motor launches that had been transported by CLAN MACALISTER (see below), but George McKenzie 'retained his command.' About 1500 the bombing became serious and at 1600 YEWDALE was ordered to leave; by this time she had taken aboard some 900 troops.
     
  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Owen posted a good link here a while back on those 'flat-bottomed motor launches' at Dunkirk.
     
    Owen likes this.
  14. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Superb stuff as ever, thanks all.
    Nothing from Andy? The mere mention of Dunkirk normally causes sparks to fly from his keyboard!

    Mike
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The first 50 LCM Mk1 weren't ordered until October 1940. The book I've got open implies that MLC 20 was the LCM Mk1 prototype. What's interesting is that the official history has MLCs 21 & 22 listed as serving at Dunkirk. It's possible that these were other pre-production models; that would need some deeper digging.

    A little more on this aspect:
    "Before the prototype trials further orders were placed, and at the time of Dunkirk this little boat was the only craft we had capable of carrying a tank and beaching."
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sorry for the delay-Holiday got in the way.

    I have the book Idler mentions and there is no mention of MCL's in the index but then the index isn't very good. There are however quite a few mentions to ALC's (Assault Landing Craft) in the index and the pages seem to describe the individual losses of each craft.

    Clan Macalister also gets a mention too. Other than this book I've not read to date of any involvement that I can recall of landing craft being used at Dunkirk.
     
  17. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Cheers Andy. Hope you had a good holidy mate.

    Mike
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I've been reading quite a few different sources over the last few days and read there were four landing craft at Dunkirk that could hold around 40 men each. For the life of me I can't find the source now.
     
  19. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    SS Clan Mcallister is mentioned in many accounts (mainly saying it was a great decoy for the bombers as it sank upright in shallow water ) has anyone any photos of it at Dunkirk?
    I talked very briefly to an East Yorks veteran at the 70th commemorations and he said leaving Dunkirk he walked down the beach onto a landing craft and never even got his feet wet. an LCA I would guess.
     
  20. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Did they get any tanks off the beaches so or were all vehicles left behind in order to get the men out?
     

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