Dutch or Canadian WW2 .303 Ammo

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Mr.M, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

    Hello everyone,

    This is my first post on this forum and I am very happy I have found it.
    I was redirected here by a user on a different forum, which I will provide a link to.
    Question about WW2 .303 ammo

    Now for my question,
    I have recently found two Mk VII cases dating back to WW2 and I was wondering from which army they would have most likely belonged to. They are pretty coroded and the headstamps can only be read in very bright light.

    Both cases were made in British factories.
    One case is stamped CP, the date unreadable.

    The second case is stamped R↑L, made in 1944.

    They were found near the Waal river, in Ottersum in a forest were, to the best of my knowledge, the Dutch army allong with the Princess Irene Bridgade and the Canadian army fought against the German army.

    To me it would appear most logical that they were from the Princess Irene Bridgade, because the cartridges were made in the UK, but I am asking here because I am by no means an expert.

    Anyone has any ideas?

    Thanking in advance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
  2. smdarby

    smdarby Patron Patron

    Hi - if it is Ottersum near Gennep, then that area was liberated by 51st Highland Division of the British Army during Operation Veritable in Feb 1945.
     
  3. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    To the best of my knowledge there were no Canadian formations named Princess Irene Brigade.
    Were you thinking> Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
  4. Seroster

    Seroster Desert-mad!

    The Princess Irene Brigade (Prinses Irene Brigade) was a Dutch unit. A quick google brought this up from wikipedia:


    The Royal Netherlands Motorized Infantry Brigade was a military unit initially formed from approximately 1,500 Dutch troops, including a small group guarding German prisoners-of-war, who arrived in the United Kingdom in May 1940 following the collapse of the Netherlands. Elements of this force became the nucleus of what was originally called the "Dutch Legion."

    On 11 February 1941, by approval of Queen Wilhelmina, the Dutch Legion gained a new name, the Prinses Irene Brigade (P.I.B.).

    Royal Netherlands Motorized Infantry Brigade - Wikipedia
     
  5. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

    I never stated that the Princes Irene Brigade was Canadian. As Dutch myself, I am well aware that the P.I.B is a Dutch unit.

    Also, is there any way to find out if the cartridges were used by British troops, Canadian troops or by the P.I.B? Or do you just have to assume what is most logical?
     
  6. RCG

    RCG Senior Member

    Mr M.

    The hard facts you have:

    They are .303 made in England 1944 and were issued to Allied troops, Navy and Air forces.

    The spot where and when they were found.

    Anything else will be just guesswork. Even if you know what troops were in that area 1944/45 you cannot say a 100% that the cartridges were left by them. Unless a soldier/soldiers come forward and says they shot bullets at that spot, where they were found. Simply because of the time lapse between the cartridges being lost and found.

    To illustrate of how things which may appear to be true, but are not in fact true.

    Let’s see what members think about this cartridge which was ploughed up in the corner of this field in 2016, the light green one, it was found just above the letter F of Fulmodeston.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hindolveston/@52.8316614,0.9869883,425m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d764d5fd11e421:0xc869a7a408724ee9!8m2!3d52.8214971!4d1.0246447?hl=en-GB

    When cleaned the cartridge markings showing are 20MM, RH, 1943.
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Well-Known Member

    Just been reading this link - 2nd Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles in WW2: 1RUR June to September 1944 and part way down is a diary entry that says:

    "On the 11th of July we received the recce party of the Princess Irene Netherlands Brigade Group, who were to relieve us the following day. We had to admit to feeling somewhat overwhelmed when we realised the strength and equipment of this unit, but ended up by feeling that it was a high compliment to the Battalion that such a strong unit should be required to relieve us! We were also surprised at the exceedingly good standard of English spoken by all ranks of this unit, although in at least one case a surprisingly satisfactory explanation was obtained. On being asked what part of Holland he came from, one Dutchman replied that he had never lived away from London in his life until he joined the Army! "

    This is just to show how the change over of units in areas of conflict would now prove difficult to know who fired which ammunition

    Anyway I thought it might be useful
    TD
     
    Seroster and CL1 like this.

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