Wikipedia gives the following figures for civilian deaths by Allied bombing: Dresden, February 1945: 24-40,000 Hamburg, July 1943: at least 50,000. These figures are in line with expert opinion today, as far as I can see. That would make Hamburg not Dresden the city that suffered the worst bombing raid in European history. I guess it will be a long time before that fact becomes part of general knowledge.
Bart, there is of course much confusion on figures of losses re Hamburg & Dresden. There probably never be a definitive number of those lost because the Hamburg numbers were of those known to have lived there at the time - however the losses attributed to Dresden do not include those of the refugee's that were fleeing from the Russian forces. Only in the main were local residents & their families recorded in the figures for Dresden. Hamburg did not have the umbers of `displaced persons' that Dresden had. Regards Sadsac
Bart, The German Historians have recently slashed the number of casualties formerly mentioned. In view of this Perhaps Hamburg was the worse both for percentage buildings destroyed and number of casualties. Bombing of Dresden Regards Tom
There were more raids on Hamburg throughout the war.It was a strategic gateway to the North Sea and beyond.Apart from the large raids by night and day on Dresden in February 1945,the city did not see much air activity during the war. Hamburg as Cologne was subject to frequent visits by Bomber Command and the USAAF.The port area and town were almost destroyed by the end of the war.After the large raid of July 1943, Speer was reported as saying that 6 raids as this on the major cities of the Reich would have put Germany out of the war. We now know that it would have taken much more for the civilian morale to have broken down.It is a pity that the dissent from those personalities who were anti Hitler was not strong enough and decisive enough to end the affair earlier. I'm afraid that the Wehrmacht did not have the stomach to show the leadership for effective resitance to the regime.Many, of course, were seduced by Hitler when he gave them full time employment in his territorial grab throughout Europe.
There were more raids on Hamburg throughout the war.It was a strategic gateway to the North Sea and beyond.Apart from the large raids by night and day on Dresden in February 1945,the city did not see much air activity during the war. Hamburg as Cologne was subject to frequent visits by Bomber Command and the USAAF.The port area and town were almost destroyed by the end of the war.After the large raid of July 1943, Speer was reported as saying that 6 raids as this on the major cities of the Reich would have put Germany out of the war. We now know that it would have taken much more for the civilian morale to have broken down.It is a pity that the dissent from those personalities who were anti Hitler was not strong enough and decisive enough to end the affair earlier. I'm afraid that the Wehrmacht did not have the stomach to show the leadership for effective resitance to the regime.Many, of course, were seduced by Hitler when he gave them full time employment in his territorial grab throughout Europe. Am right in saying that Hamburg is in Gee and Oboe Range? Kev
kfz (Kev) Found this article on the BBC peoples war site which gives a personal account about the use of Oboe and it's range. BBC - WW2 People's War - No. 8 PFF Group - Marking a target Apparently they moved the transmitters to the continent after D-Day which increased it's range. Cheers - Robert
As I wrote before, I was in Hamburg in July 1943 and watched the Firestorm albeit from our windows from a distance near to Hamburg airport. Our area named Fuhlsbuettel was not damaged at all during the WW2 bombing, lucky for us no doubt. I have also visited Dresden and seen the monuments of the raid there. Both cities suffered terrible and in both cities thousands of civilians lost their lives. I have written a book on my WW2 experiences, see: FAREWELL to HAMBURG by Dieter Rudolph I am really glad that bombing is very accurate these days and I am certain that many airmen who were involved in bombing Hamburg and Dresden would have been very pleased to have had the technology available now. Nobody surely enjoyed releasing bombs on a city that was after all mainly occupied by civilians.
The raid on Hamburg on 24 July 1943 was the first occasion that Bomber Command used "window".It led to utter confusion of the Luftwaffe night fighter defence systems.The defence system could not cope forcing the Luftwaffe to reorganise their night fighter strategy. The two raids in July 1943 and the one in early August were conducted using H2S aided by visual recognition for the first raid.Hamburg was outside the range of Oboe but Hamburg was a good H2S target, easily recognised just off the North Sea and its features,such as the Elbe gave good returns leading to a well defined target area. I would think that Gee would have been used or used to its limit so that navigation to the target would have been made easier. Similarly the raid on Lubeck on 28 March 1942,although out of Gee range,the equipment was used to its maximum range to ease final navigation to the target.A moonlit night contributed to the overall success of the raid.
Based on my assumption that Hamburg was bombed more often that Dresden, I suspect that the men of Bomber Command suffered more during their ops on Hamburg than on Dresden. Roxy
Based on my assumption that Hamburg was bombed more often that Dresden, I suspect that the men of Bomber Command suffered more during their ops on Hamburg than on Dresden. Roxy Well put Roxy, that's getting this thread moving in the right direction.
From Bomber Command 1939-1945 by Richard Overy in the statistics published in Appendix 1, it states that hamburg was No 3 in towns suffering more than 50% damage of all buildings and shows 51%. Dresden is not shown on the list showing less than 10% damage. Perhaps Rudolf can elaborate more. If I remember correctly, Lübeck was bombed after Coventry purely because it was a so called easy target, due to the fact that was a Harbour/Coastal town and therefore easier to find than a blacked out town in the middle of Germany. Bomber command at this time had not aquired the Navigational accuracy to pin point targets. Lübeck also was relatively undefended and an old town build mainly of wood, which caused untold damage. A church that was completely burned down is now rebuilt and twinned with Coventry Cathederal. Regards Tom
