Dresden Bombing 70 Years ago

Discussion in 'All Anniversaries' started by researchingreg, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. KieronDublin

    KieronDublin Member

  2. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    ...when taken out of context to the REST of the remarks in his letter to Harris via Portal....BOTH versions of it.
     
  3. Holmes

    Holmes New Member

    And every mother, wife in fact every relative of someone in active service during the war has a serious query about the Germans starting the war. And as for the Archbishop apologising regarding Dresden I hope it was on a personal note and he was not representing myself or many others with the same thoughts of mine
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I don't. I don't have any doubt at all, and I had relatives fighting on both sides.


    The germans started the war.

    Is it possible to move further along the discussion than this, or do BC and Dresden have so much baggage heaped upon them from all sides, that there's no point in doing anything other than repeating the same things said in earlier threads?
     
  5. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Justin Welby apologises for British bombing of Dresden in World War II
    In what was immediately criticised as an insult to the young men who gave their lives to defeat the Nazis, the Most Rev Justin Welby told the German people of his ‘profound feeling of regret and deep sorrow’ over the attack.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952945/Archbishop-says-sorry-bombing-Nazis-Justin-Welby-attacked-bizarre-apology-Dresden-raids-makes-no-reference-RAF-heroes-killed-Hitler.html#ixzz3RfX7iakt
     
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  6. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    good day geoff501.yesterday.01:28pm.re:dresden bombing 70 years ago.+from a dresden resident.having lived through the london blitz.being bombed out,i for one admire our air force.for all there raids on germany.and thank them for there bravery,and to those who did not return may they live in peace,to the dresden resident.typical of a german after they lost the war,1.they will tell you they were not a nazy.2.they did not know about consantrasion camp.3 they helped a jew escape.4.it goes on and on with utter bullshit,as for me when i was away in the pacific or atlantic i hoped we were bombing s,,,,,t out of germany,as for justin welby opologizing for bombing of dresden in ww2.he was or is a nazi sympathiser.how come he is allowed to live in the uk.(the most rev justin welby.kiss my backside) regards bernard85, (for our airman :poppy: :poppy: )
     
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  7. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    After Dresden, Bomber Command lost another 700 bombers before the war ended and through Feb./Mar. London continued to be hit by V2s.

    Dresden was just another raid in a long, costly war that, at the time, was far from over. Like Hamburg, the results could not be predicted in advance. Harris and his men truly deserved some support from the politicians who directed the campaigns. The specific critiscism of that raid was entirely disingenuous and politically motivated. In my view, a travesty extending 70 years.
     
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  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    There are many Major 70th Anniversaries this year with regards to WW2.

    Dresden is just one of them.

    This week there has been a lot on German TV about the Bombing of Dresden. The earlier link to the Daily Mail article Shows a Dresden resident who was 7 years old when the City was bombed, but the interview was not slighted for or against, but told as it was.

    This was no different to other raids that produced the same firestorm effect, which was due to accurate bombing with good visibilty and weather conditions.

    This was not the case in the majority of bombing missions carried out by Bomber Command, where weather conditions etc conspired against them.

    I would say that the People of Dresden who experience the Bombing 70 years ago would be saying exactly what the People of other countries suffered when subjected to the same conditions by the Luftwaffe.

    This thread is solely about Dresden and so I have tried to Keep exactly to that subject.

    Dresden Centre is almost completely restored and once more reflects a Pre War atmosphere, which I think tourists once again appreciate.

    Regards
    Tom
     
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  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    He didn't though, really.
    Much as I hate religion and historical apologies, and had hoped I could get pleasantly irate about the AB of C's comments, the text shows a pretty harmlessly platitudinal speech:
    http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/5498/archbishops-speech-on-70th-anniversary-of-dresden-bombing

    Irving (insert Doom-laden organ chord) made 'Dresden' (insert further Doom-laden organ chord) controversial in the sixties.
    There was a war on.
    C.50M died, over c.6 years, civvy and serviceman.
    What else does anyone expect in a world war...
    Grim, innit, but there you go.
    Modern use of Dresden (chord etc.) as some sort of special touchstone about man's inhumanity to man bores me rigid.

    Other pools of WW2 blood are available. Not that you'd know it in some corners of the meeja, broadcast and paper, serious and rag, at this time of year.
    Easy bit of filler. Instant controversy, just add outrage.
     
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  10. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Geoff

    The Mosquito Bomber could have been used in larger numbers
    • Mosquito carries to Berlin half the bomb load carried by a Lancaster, but....
    • Mosquito loss rate is just 1/10 of Lancasters' loss rate
    • Mosquito costs a third of the cost of a Lancaster
    • Mosquito has a crew of two, compared to a Lancaster's crew of seven
    • Mosquito was a proven precision day bomber and the Lancaster was not.

    Also on heavy bombers, why were Navigators and Air Bombers two crew members instead of one? Many Navigators were trained as Bomb Aimers. This would cut heavy bomber crews down to 6. Whitley bombers managed with a crew of 5, but the aircraft were not up to the job, later in the war. There was no Flight Engineer. The pilot was in full control of the engines.
     
  11. researchingreg

    researchingreg Well-Known Member

    Clarification: Yes the post is about Dresden as it discussed often in the same way as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was an aside about aircrew numbers, but relevant all the same so two statements. One is War in the Air and one is anniversary.
     
  12. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Well, if WE'D invented the equivalent of the V1 and V2 we wouldn't have needed to send ANY aircrew over - but we didn't so we did the next best thing....

    Perhaps more Dam Buster type raids on crucial parts of the German infrastructure (if we'd known accurately which and where they were - look at the ball bearings situation for another example of where we stopped at a crucial moment instead of causing German industry to grind to a halt. Or maybe a creeping carpet bombing of known AA sites, radar, fighter airfields?

    The point about the Mosquito is that it DIDN'T carry the bomb load of a 4 engined bomber and obviously Bomber Command had decided that weight and number of bombs would do the job better. With hindsight we could question that, but at the time and in the circumstances, that was the way the War in the Air was fought.
    You'd have needed twice the number of aircraft, so that's four crew and 4 Merlins, and 2,000 in the air for an equivalent 1,000 bomber raid..... we' have lost more from collisions, let alone where would all the plywood come from - we'd have a country with no trees left!

    What's done is done, we don't get anywhere with "What If's" as where do you start and end?

    You could also ask the USAAF why they used B17's and B24's with much larger crews and smaller bomb loads - should they have used more Mosquito type aircraft?
     
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  13. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Whenever I read the phrases "what if" or *should we have" or that devil "In hindsight" I feel slightly nauseous.

    I humbly submit that in the fateful years of which we write in such length, we, that is all who were fighting the enemies of freedom, did our level best to achieve victory with all the know-how that was available at the time in question and with all the strength that we posessed, again, at the time in question.

    Nothing can ever alter that, despite all the conjecturing that has been done since those years.

    Ron
     
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  14. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/the-legacy-of-winston-churchill

     
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  15. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Regarding Mosquitos delivering the Bomber Command task,it would have been impracticable.The max lift of the Mosquito would be the Cookie,a 4000lb blast bomb. Further a bomb mix for a raid by a 4 engined heavy bomber also included incendiaries which would represent a high volume load for the likes of the Mosquito.

    Having said that the Mosquito was a superb multi role aircraft...fighter,fighter bomber,intruder, medium bomber,reconnaissance aircraft and blockade runner but not the role as as a strategic bomber.It did herald a step change in aircraft concept and design. A high speed aircraft and turretless,it was ideal model for a medium bomber concept and resulted in the concept being adopted for the jet engined Canberra,immediately after the war.But as an analogy,it could not be argued that since the Canberra with a 2-3 man crew,available for squadron service from 1951 should have been the first line Bomber Command aircraft over the V Bomber aircraft which carried a crew of 5.The V Bomber role was one which the Canberra could not be adapted for and was not conceived as such.

    As stated the Mosquito bomb load would have been restricted.There would not have been the capability to lift the specialist bombs such as the Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs,a capability which the Lancaster was the only bomber modified to carry. When these bombs were conceived,it was not known what the outcome of the U Boat war would be....in the end these specialist weapons were proved to be the only types capable of causing damage to U Boat pens...equally the German structural engineering was at such a high level as to reduce impact damage....multi skin concrete layer roofs with voids in a sandwich arrangement...conventional bombs would have had little impact.

    Using the Mosquito as a strategic bomber would have required a 100% increase in pilot and navigator strengths with an added cost and provision and resources for training.At the height of Lancaster strength,Bomber Command had about 58 squadrons and taking an average strength of 24 aircraft per squadron,the total number of pilots would be in the order of nearly 1400 pilots and also navigators.A max effort would have required almost twice the pilots and navigators for a Mosquito equipped force as compared to a Lancaster force.

    I would add that after the Potsdam raid of 14 April 1945,there were no further strategic raids raids by Bomber Command,raids over Germany were undertaken by the Light Night Striking Force comprising solely of 62 Mosquitos for the cost of one Mosquito.(One heavy daylight raid on Hitler's lair at Obersalzburg was made on 25 April was outside BC strategic role)

    On the invasion of Europe,the accuracy of Oboe and G-H was greatly enhanced by the use of ground stations, established on the continent as it was overrun.It was one of the important technological support features for the Dresden raid bombing aids.
     
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  16. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Harry,

    An excellent post.

    I remember taking part in a similar debate on the BBC Forum regarding the use of Mosquitos instead of Heavy Bombers.

    The debate caused quite a heated debate, but as I recall came down in favour of the Heavy Bomber.

    Whilst the Mosquito was undoubtably on of the best high Speed planes, capable of Multi Roles, it could carry a useful bomb load, but at a tremendous cost regarding deteriorating Speed, and Performance which was the Mosquitos best defence.

    Not to be forgotten was the production of several planes that were German's answers to the Mosquito and started to make life difficult for the RAF, who's Mosquitos were almost immune from air attacks.

    Regards
    Tom
     
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  17. L J

    L J Senior Member


    The Germans started the attacks on cities in WWI with Zeppelins,the HSF attacked also the city of Scarborough,thus,they should not whine thereafter,when their cities became legitimate war aims .
     
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  18. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Did anyone else hear the Dresden piece on Radio 5 live the other day with an interview from Thomas Kielinger?
    Definitely no whining there.

    As far as I am concerned the bleater who got the most coverage in recent times was an Englishman, not a German. And his credibility is already in tatters.


    I'm with VP on this; any mention of Dresden bores me rigid, particularly when remembrance of the dead is turned into yet another outrage fest, with one paper in particular focusing on the Archbishop's comments and the BBC's coverage, rather than - as usual - anything really informative. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2953267/Dresden-speech-not-apology-Welby.html




    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11412224/Dresden-bombings-Thousands-form-human-chain-for-70th-anniversary.html
     
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  19. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

  20. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Of course, what the eventual capacity of German industry might have been, in the absence of the RAF bombing campaign, is a question without an answer.
     

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