Dispatch Riders & Norton WD 16H's

here's a great image of some 16H Norton's

16h.parade.jpg (image)

Any clues about who we're seeing, as the three front row are wearing different kit (for different roles?)?


Kind regards

 

Not necessarily different roles, but just different kit for the same job. The guy in the middle is interesting as he appears to be wearing the Mk.I (?) D.R. helmet which superceded the wearing of the all-arms standard Mk.II steel helmet* for despatch riders (as worn by the two outside riders). This helmet was made of a sort of compressed fibre and was worn before the issue of the Mk.II D.R. helmet in 1941 which was made of steel (the shell of which was pretty much the same as the airborne helmet). He also appears to be wearing a Service Dress jacket as opposed to the Battle Dress of the rider on the left.

(* the Mk.II helmet (the "battle bowler"), was totally unsuitable for DR work - it was actually the wearing of this pattern that made my grandad's injuries worse when he was shelled off his bike near Arras! If they had the Mk.II D.R. helmet at this time, it's doubtful that his war would have ended there)

Dave.

 

It is an impressive picture, isn't it ? The sound must have been quite something as well. The picture is one that appeared in the period press and is captioned as showing an exercise in Eastern Command.

Early on in the war, the crash helmets (originally 'pulp' later steel) were only issued to Royal Signals Dispatch Riders. Ordinary 'motorcyclists' had to make do with the Mk2 steel helmet which blew back when riding and broke necks when falling off.

 

Owen not all DR's were DR's. My Father was known to have ridden in the Ilse of Man TT before the war, and was once ordered to take a despatch to wherever. Richard Massey suffered the same fate, after he was caught borrowing a bike and going to see his older brother who was in the next town in Holland. You can ride a bike Massey take this to so and so.

 

Rich, apologies if it's your website I've direct linked to.

Fantastic photo and yeah, what a lovely noise it must have been!


One thing I'm slightly confused about now, however.

Were the 6th Loyals a despatch rider unit? A whole battalion of them?

And does that mean that their transfer to Recce didn't involve any
sort of 'interview' of the sort mentioned on other Recce threads?

Maybe I'll stick this question on the 2nd Recce thread too

Kind regards

 

The 6th Loyals were formed into a Motorcycle Battalion. This was something that was being experimented with pre-war as mechanisation increased. It seems to have been a fairly short-lived experiment and mainly involved Territorial battalions although quite why is unclear to me. They were used as Divisional troops in a reconnaissance type role, the intention being in much the same way as the units used successfully by the Germans.

The only two Motorcycle Battalions with the BEF were 4th Battalion Royal Northumberland Fusiliers in 50th Div and 1st Queen Victoria's Rifles who had the misfortune to be sent in for the defence of Calais, almost certainly minus their bikes.

A Motorcycle Battalion was not made up of Despatch Riders (a name said by some to only apply to Royal Signals) but of motorcyclists with a mix of solo and sidecar outfits.

This is perhaps the best information that I have (but if anyone can find me an original copy of this issue of 'Army & Navy Modeller's World' I'd be ever so grateful )








...and this is how the Norton factory glamourised the role -

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge,
it really is fascinating to learn all this!


all the best

 

here's a great image of some 16H Norton's

16h.parade.jpg (image)

Any clues about who we're seeing, as the three front row are wearing different kit (for different roles?)?


Kind regards

AHD,

I have just found out that a friend of mine rode one of these machines for the 43rd Wessex.

He mentioned that the forks were not as good as telescopic, but it was a dependable 500cc Side Valve.

Cyril is in his mid 80's and extremely active, just a pity that he is not into computers.

A life long motorcylist he attended the TT every year and even had his Honeymoon on the Isle of Man whilst the TT was on.

Regards
Tom

 

Blimey Tom, he sounds just like the sort of people that I associate with !

Does he have any photographs with a WD motorcycle or could you persuade him to jot down some of his memories ?

The Nortons were generally becoming a second-line motorcycle by 1944, although the Canadians used them in NW Europe. I'd be fascinated to know if 43 Div used them later in the war and with which units.

Cheers. Rich

 

Blimey Tom, he sounds just like the sort of people that I associate with !

Does he have any photographs with a WD motorcycle or could you persuade him to jot down some of his memories ?

The Nortons were generally becoming a second-line motorcycle by 1944, although the Canadians used them in NW Europe. I'd be fascinated to know if 43 Div used them later in the war and with which units.

Cheers. Rich


Rich,

I will see what I can do as he was a little reluctant a while ago when I enquired.
I believe he may be more inclined when I explain that our some of our forum members are extremely keen to know about his use of the bikes.

I always telephone on Mondays to keep in contact, so I will PM you next week.

Regards
Tom

 

My grandad was a dispatch rider,he only sold his bike to buy a pram for my mam. He missed it though. He went to the Isle of Man with my grandma often and loved it. He drove a norton right through till 44 when he came home i think then anyway going off dates on photos. He was based mainly in Palestine. Anyone know anything about this time from 41/44
Any info would be great
Thanks ,Laura x

 

In Darwin in the 50's ex WD bikes were going for a song, 10 quid would see you buy a
goodun, wish they were around now. BSA's Norton's and for the life of me another
popular Brit bike which I cant remember the name of. All the same felt rather superior
with my BSA A10RR.
David

 

Not necessarily different roles, but just different kit for the same job. The guy in the middle is interesting as he appears to be wearing the Mk.I (?) D.R. helmet which superceded the wearing of the all-arms standard Mk.II steel helmet* for despatch riders (as worn by the two outside riders). This helmet was made of a sort of compressed fibre and was worn before the issue of the Mk.II D.R. helmet in 1941 which was made of steel (the shell of which was pretty much the same as the airborne helmet). He also appears to be wearing a Service Dress jacket as opposed to the Battle Dress of the rider on the left.

(* the Mk.II helmet (the "battle bowler"), was totally unsuitable for DR work - it was actually the wearing of this pattern that made my grandad's injuries worse when he was shelled off his bike near Arras! If they had the Mk.II D.R. helmet at this time, it's doubtful that his war would have ended there)

Dave.

Hi,

I am new on this site but very interested. I was a Royal Signals Despatch Rider from Sept 1939 to 1942...starting as DR then promoted progessively to Sgt in charge of DR Sections in 4th (NM) Corps Signals, 2 Corps Signals, briefly in 11 Armoured Div, then War Office, with a few other short postings along the way (including Bletchley Parkin 1940). I was in France in 1940 leaving via Calais.
Wearing the steel helmet was supposed to be mandatory for DRs on duty but in reality we strapped them on the back of the bike, as they were lethal if you had an accident or were bombed etc. I believe the 'safety helmets' were introduced for Signals DRs in early 1941. I have at least one picture of me on a bike wearing one in 1941 and later that year it probably saved my life when I was on convoy duty and was hit from behind by a scout car trying to overtake the convoy. I was pinned underneath the car and my safety helmet was rubbed down on the road to the level of my scalp.....about 3 inches.

Re mention of bikes. At the start of the war the army had none for us and we were allowed to use our own civilian bikes, for which they paid us. My brother and I rode Scotts....700cc twin engined, water-cooled,,,,with foot gear shift. Then after a few months we got 500cc SV Nortons and those pretty much became our standard bikes, and very good for the job, although at some time in early 1942 I got a 500cc OHC Norton that was like a fire-cracker in comparison.

In late 1942 I was selected for officer training and was commissioned in Signals in 1943. Thereafter I served in SHAEF Signals(General Eisenhower's HQ), in Britain and Europe, until VE Day, then spent the rest of my service as Adjutant of Berlin HQ Signals.....until August of 1946.

I could provide photographs but am not yet familiar with the methods and protocols for inserting them.

 

Hi Nevil and a very warm welcome to the forum.

Looking forward to hearing about your time with the BEF and seeing any pictures you have from France.

Certa Cito
Andy

 

Hello Nevil, nice to have you on the forum. Fascinating to hear from a signals DR who served from the beginning.

No doubt you're familiar with "The blue 'un" and "The Green 'un" . I have a small collection of issues from the 1930s and 1940s and they are a useful source of information.

It would seem that the army wished it to be known as early as April 1940 that Despatch Riders were being issued with proper crash helmets. The reality was certainly different. I have never seen reference to nor photographs from the BEF showing the new helmets.

This issue mentions the new helmets :-



...and a better copy of the photograph :-



I'm very interested to see any period photographs of motorcycles in service. If you're struggling to attach photographs to your post but have them on your computer, please feel free to e-mail them to me and I'll put them on.

My 'avatar' shows my 1939 16H which was left behind in Belgium bearing 2nd Division markings.

Rich

 

Welcome aboard Nevil !

When the moderators are fully awake we must see that you are given your proper status.

This, from someone who was Squadron Don R for at least an hour

Best regards

Ron

 

Thanks to the members for messages of welcome. I am not sufficiently familiar with this type of forum....not used one before although I have been using a computer for about 30 years...to include pictures as yet. It asks for my url and I have only folder and file references so I have to figure that out. I note Rich kindly offers to post them for me if I will email them to him....and I will do that as soon as I can find his address!

Nevil.

 

welcome to the forum

 

PM sent.