Disgusted - Deport the Lot!!!

Discussion in 'The Lounge Bar' started by Jedburgh22, Nov 11, 2010.

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  1. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    Remember Salman Rushdie and Khomeini's Fatwa?
    Vividly. And I think even the Iranians would admit that was a mistake, since they gained far more negative publicity in the non-Muslim world than positive.

    This piece by Gerald Priestland, published in the Sunday Times on November 6th 1988, presents a very balanced view by a Christian scholar, before the fatwah was issued:

    IT IS just as well the 1988 Booker prize did not go to Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses that is, if we are to believe Hesham El Essawy, chairman of the Islamic Society for the Promotion of Religious Tolerance in the United Kingdom. One might hesitate over the word ``tolerance" in that title, and wonder whether ``respect" or ``privilege" might be more appropriate an indication that the meaning of English can be modified by the culture of him who uses it.

    Mr El Essawy accuses Salman Rushdie's publisher, Viking, of ``having declared war unilaterally on Islam and the Muslims" and warns it that unless it puts matters right ``the monster that you have so needlessly created" will grow into something uncontrollable world-wide. ``We might as well knight muggers and give mass murderers the Nobel prize." The book, in short, is ``insulting in the extreme to everything that the Muslims hold sacred".

    Mr El Essawy understands, however, that in a non-Muslim country it is not enough to rely on the Muslim magisterium alone. He cites the familiar European doctrine that everyone's freedom is limited by the freedom of others. Thus: ``Mr Salman Rushdie is free to hold any belief, or none, as he pleases... but he is not free to tamper with mine." Nor has he the moral right, it is claimed, to take the established facts of an historical figure and alter them as he pleases, even if he disguises the result as a novel.

    Here the cultural gap looks unbridgeable. Freedom of speculation and interpretation has a long history in Europe and few Europeans would accept that unorthodox belief has limited or tampered with the beliefs of the orthodox. None of us wishes Mr El Essawy to believe other than he does, and it seems unlikely that Salman Rushdie will subvert him. However, Western Christians are accustomed to the manhandling of their scriptures in a way that devotees of the Koran are not. Few doubt the historical existence of Jesus, but even the gospels leave room for conflicting views of him. It may be a criticism of our fidelity, but generally speaking we took the film, The Last Temptation of Christ, in our stride.

    To my mind The Satanic Verses does present a parody of the prophet Muhammad, and it is not surprising that the government of India (with its large and explosive Muslim minority) should have made the gesture of banning it. But should we in Britain follow India's lead on the grounds that we, too, are a multiracial, multi-cultural, multi-faith society?

    The fact is we are not, or not yet, and will not be made so by legislation. The current law against blasphemy protects only the Christian religion, and for two reasons once considered good: that blasphemy would call down the wrath of God upon all of us, and that (Anglican) Christianity was part and parcel of the laws of England.

    It being hard to maintain either nowadays, a majority of the law commissioners were in favour of abolishing the common-law offence entirely. A minority, with considerable support from the churches, favoured a new law, not confined to Christians alone, protecting the religious against deliberate insult or outrage.

    This sounds liberal but could be used most illiberally. One should take care before making a sin a crime. Who can be sure what might offend some sects? There are even a few cults though Islam is certainly not one of them which deserve to be exposed rather than respected.
     
  2. Chant

    Chant Junior Member

    Why tar all Muslims with the same brush? Simple! They have never made any attempt to stop the terrorisits in their midst...far from it.... they support them.

    We fought for the good things in life .for freedom. Not to see other peoples come her and feed off of our good nature, insult and kill us. Yet it is utterly sickening to be told it is racist to try to remind fok of the facts.......

    They have murdered the inniocent around the world NY 9/11 Spain Germany UK Bali everywhere... Yet to protest against insulting our men that sacrificed all, is seen as racist. I despair..... God help our Country

    I don't know how many times you have to have this pointed out to you, Sapper. Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslims live in Britain to 'feed off' your good nature. The vastly overwhelming majority live honest, hard-working lives. You've read here that many hundreds of thousands of Muslims and other races gave their lives in the two major conflicts of the past 100 years or so. Yet, because of the actions of a few, the majority are made scapegoats. Where's the respect for the Muslim war dead?
     
  3. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It is up to the majority to get rid of the ones that cause the trouble... There is no doubt they came here to improve their life styles.........

    Yet they make a mockery of the hand that feeds them. Everyone seems intent on hiding from the truth...... They loath us.... They even dig up our dead intheir lands and burn their bodies... Niw I dont know where you are coming from. But my country comes first. Not some other aleins. A peoplwe that thinks entirely diffrerent to us.And have nothing in common.
     
  4. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    It is up to the majority to get rid of the ones that cause the trouble... There is no doubt they came here to improve their life styles.........

    Yet they make a mockery of the hand that feeds them. Everyone seems intent on hiding from the truth...... They loath us.... They even dig up our dead intheir lands and burn their bodies... Niw I dont know where you are coming from. But my country comes first. Not some other aleins. A peoplwe that thinks entirely diffrerent to us.And have nothing in common.
    Well the majority of these people came from countries that were part of the British Empire, so they do have something in common with you.......... again not all muslims are the same and your referral to these people as aliens, well a lot of them were actually born in the United Kingdom. They arent aliens. Indeed I'd like to know who exactly you are referring to, are you referring to people who werent born in the UK, are Muslim and are living off benefits? Or perhaps you are referring to people born in the UK who are muslim in general? Is it the actual followers of Islam you have a problem with or is it merely the radical elements of it?
     
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  5. Chant

    Chant Junior Member

    Sapper, if I were you, I'd actually stop speaking right now. You're in serious danger of losing any respect I personally am capable of giving you both as an elder, and as a veteran. You're perpetuating a racial argument that leaves me, and by the look of it (thank God), quite a few others, cold.

    A. There is nothing wrong with seeking a better life wherever you wish. I've done it.
    B. The 'truth' is that some people love to think that they 'loathe' us. Some people thrive on that 'knowledge', it gives them someone to blame. Someone to point at as the reason why they can't get a job, because the 'ragheads' have taken them all. But, when questioned, admit that they wouldn't 'get out of bed for less than a tenner an hour'. Someone to cite as the reason why they can't get a council house in their area. Because 'the muslims have taken them all'. The list goes on.
    C. Quote your sources when you make your claims. British bodies dug up and burned? Where? By whom?
    D. 'Your' country doesn't exist anymore, except in your mind. It's our country. It's their country.

    The one thing that you're on the right track with, although you probably don't realise it, is that the majority will take care of the minority. It's happening right now. The Muslim council are working very, very hard to force a change within their society. Now, get over yourself and try to win back some of the respect you think you deserve by having a more open mind.
     
  6. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    The Muslim council are working very, very hard to force a change within their society. Now, get over yourself and try to win back some of the respect you think you deserve by having a more open mind.
    Yep. Enough of the "us and them". "We" are all human beings. "Us and them" is exactly what "radical Islam" feeds on - philosophically, these so-called radicals are actually the worst form of reactionary, since they are trying to portray the current world situation as a rerun of the Crusades.

    For good or bad - and I hold no particular religious view these days (lapsed Anglican, now agnostic) - the Church now has very little power in most "Christian" countries. Islam fears that will spread and that it will lose its power - hence the radical/reactionary preachers. They seek to mould young minds (how many of these "radicals" that you see are over 25?), but this must be changed by elders of the Islamic community, who are now waking up to the truism that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Their cause is not helped by backwoods American preachers threatening to burn the Koran and idiotic "send them all home" statements.
     
  7. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    well a lot of them were actually born in the United Kingdom. They arent aliens.


    Don't wish to fall out with anyone but one must consider the following minority

    Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Germaine Lindsay, Hasib Hussain.

    All 'British' citizens?

    7/7/2005
     
  8. REK

    REK Senior Member

    Chant, please don't speak to Sapper like that. I don't know how much you know about him, or how many of his posts on this site you have read. Sapper has lived with the consequences of terrible war injuries for nearly 70 years and (although I think he has overstated his case on this occasion) he is a prominent voice of humanity and decency on this site.

    This has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the argument; it was me, after all, who said not to tar all Muslims with the same brush. We don't all have to agree on this forum, and as you clearly disagree strongly with Sapper on this one it is reasonable that you should present your case forcefully - but let's still show some respect.
     
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  9. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    No argument there, Peter - you are of course correct that they are British citizens - but it is surely inflammatory to put British in inverted commas? Ethnicity or religion has nothing to do with their citizenship. Those four also fit the pattern which I outlined: young impressionable minds brainwashed by reactionary preachers. Add that to the failings of British education as explained in the page von Poop linked to and I hope you see what I mean.

    July 7th was also probably when the more responsible sections of the wider British Islamic community began to realise that it was up to them to put their house in order.
     
  10. Chant

    Chant Junior Member

    Chant, please don't speak to Sapper like that. I don't know how much you know about him, or how many of his posts on this site you have read. Sapper has lived with the consequences of terrible war injuries for nearly 70 years and (although I think he has overstated his case on this occasion) he is a prominent voice of humanity and decency on this site.

    This has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the argument; it was me, after all, who said not to tar all Muslims with the same brush. We don't all have to agree on this forum, and as you clearly disagree strongly with Sapper on this one it is reasonable that you should present your case forcefully - but let's still show some respect.

    Respect has to be shown by all concerned. Respect is earned, not demanded. Personally, I don't care if Sapper's a veteran or not. All I care about is an attitude that's all too prevalent in our society, and I'll pull anyone up over that from a president to a pauper.
     
  11. REK

    REK Senior Member

    Respect is earned, not demanded.

    I haven't noticed Sapper demanding anyone's respect, although he's certainly earned mine for the reasons I have already mentioned.

    Yes, I agree that he has gone too far on this occasion, but his is a prevalent and understandable viewpoint among people of that generation. We do not wipe out a man's past actions and undermine his good name just for that.

    Personally, I don't care if Sapper's a veteran or not.

    I'm very sorry to hear that.
     
  12. Chant

    Chant Junior Member

    I haven't noticed Sapper demanding anyone's respect, although he's certainly earned mine for the reasons I have already mentioned.

    Yes, I agree that he has gone too far on this occasion, but his is a prevalent and understandable viewpoint among people of that generation. We do not wipe out a man's past actions and undermine his good name just for that.



    I'm very sorry to hear that.

    Firstly, you're quoting me out of context, and that's plainly wrong. Secondly, I really do not care about Sapper's past, nor does he care about mine. Wrong is wrong, no matter who the individual. If you agree he's gone too far, then good, we have some common ground. Just because someone fought in a war doesn't automatically guarantee them immunity from being called into question over dubious views of a racial nature.

    And just because a viewpoint is 'prevalent' or from a particular 'generation' doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that it shouldn't be attacked and disaproved of, simply by virtue of what the purporter of such viewpoints went through as a matter of course.
     
  13. Ciar2001

    Ciar2001 Member

    Sapper you have my full respect along with any veteran of any war, you did something I haven't simple as and gave me the freedom to grow up in a free country.

    But can i just state that this is exactly what these kind of people want, they want people to become nationalistic and fervent nothing more, they want blood to be spilt they want the bile and hate to force peoples hands so it turns them into being right and good!

    by doing that though it plays into their hands, as others have said there is a reaction but you can't just go out there mob handed not in this liberal pc world not anymore, it has to be handled well, so I am all for those who are doing so to get on with the job in hand.

    Just a bit of background but growing up as kid most of my friends where either asian or afro carribean or like me white but had family from a different country, with my name I know where half my family came from Ireland the other half England, don't forget back in the 70's we were the terrorists the hated the papers did the same then as they are doing now, do you think we are all bad? no i doubt it because plenty of them fought in WW1 and WW2 same for muslims and god knows how many other races and cultures, it's for that reason and that reason alone people get the chance to speak on these forums..
     
  14. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Ah well, there you go with freedom!

    I think Churchill said, after his defeat at the polls to a Labour Party, after the war, 'I think that's what we were fighting for'. The trouble with democracy is that you have to put up with the people you protect and support in been able to voice free speech. I do know that if these people were in charge, the first thing to go, after womens rights, would be our freedom of speech. I do not want to revert back to a medieval society, it took us long enough to evolve out of one.
     
  15. Rotherfield

    Rotherfield Senior Member

    I agree with all the sentiments above, as Owen rightly points out its not only a few Muslims that shout hate the Celtic "Fans" were just as bad with their rehtoric, as for us lining up and shouting "Charge" at them you forgot one important command
    "Fix Bayonets"
    With regard to these fanatics amongst our midst the worrying question is "What did our politically motivated Police do" answer --Nothing -- Zilch which says it all really
    Deport the lot of them without question give us back our Country and our Democracy
    the same democracy that the E.U. has eradicated
    Rotherfield
     
  16. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    Deport the lot of them without question give us back our Country and our Democracy

    Yeah deport the muslims. Then deport the hindus. Then the sikhs. Then the blacks, and anyone else with a skin colour slightly darker than white. Then the jews. Then the roman catholics. Then kick out the church of england lot, and get the catholics back in. Then kick out the normans. Then the angles and the saxons.... etc.

    \sarcasm off

    How can you deport people who were born in this country for reasons based solely on their religion? The majority of muslims in this country are NOT extremist. There are plenty of christian extremist groups around, but nobody says a thing about them, or dumps all christians into the same pot.

    Did Hitler's persecution of the jews (and other groups) not teach us anything?
     
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  17. REK

    REK Senior Member

    Firstly, you're quoting me out of context, and that's plainly wrong. Secondly, I really do not care about Sapper's past, nor does he care about mine. Wrong is wrong, no matter who the individual. If you agree he's gone too far, then good, we have some common ground. Just because someone fought in a war doesn't automatically guarantee them immunity from being called into question over dubious views of a racial nature.

    And just because a viewpoint is 'prevalent' or from a particular 'generation' doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that it shouldn't be attacked and disproved of, simply by virtue of what the purporter of such viewpoints went through as a matter of course.

    The point I am making is simply one of showing respect. Racism is despicable whoever it comes from - I agree - but your mistake is to casually dismiss Sapper's views as racist in the same way that one might regard those of a rank-and-file BNP member. I don't agree with Sapper's conclusions, but he has reached them on the basis of his judgement of the situation rather than malice.

    You could have made your point in a manner which acknowledges that fact and respects what he has endured and lived through - see Ciar2001's post from earlier on for an example.
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    And I shall stand with Sapper -and I shall defend his right to say what he thinks - no matter what anyone has to say as I have met him - and understand his feelings on many subjects - as for those who don't care about his background - then let them stand in front of the present day Sappers in the goat herders country - we fought for freedom of oppression not to be pushed to one side by a minority - no matter where that minority comes from - or whatever they believe in - their objective is to dominate ! From my point of view - they appear to be well on their way when good men who resist are told to "move on or be charged with assault !"

    People should recall their history at Lepanto - Vienna and Belgrade and how they were sent back for 400 years because a few well chosen men stood up to them
    ...so where are the good men to-day - apart from Dave - and Sapper ?
    Cheers
     
  19. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    My last word. I am not a racist as such. What I am, is an old Gentleman from a totally different generation. One that thought that what we have was worth fighting for, and did it. We were never racists..... BUT... and its a hell of a big BUT... we would not stand for enemies in our midst .

    That we have been BLOWN UP and subjected to terrorism makes these people our enemies in our own land. The answer it seems to me, is to give up these terrorists, For they have been killing our innocent women and children....There is no denying that fact.

    I can also tell you that this outlook is one shared with a great many surviving Vets...Anyone is welcome in our land, as long as they contribute to its well being.

    If you turn against us? then I want to see you removed....Quickly.

    But as I said I am one of a long past generation, but one that thought that all we hold dear was worth what we had to do. WE WOULD NOT put up with what is happening now. Perhaps it would be right to point out, that at this time the country is at its highest alert from another terrorist attack.

    Are we alone in caring for our people? For I find the tone of this debate almost in the "They did not mean to kill us"
     
  20. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Thanks Tom. Always the Gentleman
     
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