Dig WW2 Comments Thread

Excellent programme. The dive footage of the Empire Heritage was amazing, such clarity at 70m is outstanding.
The coverage of Sam Cassidy and his family was well worth the wait to the end of the programe. Huge respect to the Dutch military and their politicians who continue to finance the research into 'unknown' victims of war.
For anyone who hasn't seen it yet link here:
BBC iPlayer - Dig WW2 with Dan Snow: Episode 2

 

I finally watched the first one yesterday-Previously I had heard nothing but good things about Gerry Chester and now I can see why. He really comes across as a true gent.

Great programme and far better than War Hero in my family IMO. I learnt quite a few things about WW2 in 60 minutes that I didn't know - Two complaints thought:

1. It should have been on national TV

2. It should have been one programme per subject


Dare I say it - I even found the Italian campaign interesting, I'm off to wash my mouth out.





Ps. Paul I still think you should try and get someone to do a Dig in Nieppe Forest

 

Just thinking about Geert and his suggestion that the remains were possibly a Dutchman, executed by the resistance, possibly a collaborator, if that proved to be the case, would they get in touch with the family, who may have no knowledge of these facts, for them very disturbing facts, and then tell the family of their findings, or would they take another option that may possible be available to them as a compassionate get out, quite a dilemma. However I have every confidence they will deal with it correctly once positively identified.
Again a great program leaving you lots to think about, but this point keeps coming to mind.

regards lofty

Lofty old boy,

Knowing Geert quite well I think I might be able your most excellent question. The main objective of the work of the Dutch Army's BIDKL is to provide comfort to the next of kin of those who went missing during the War and to take away their uncertainty of what happened to their loved one.

This work is carried out regardsless of the background of the casulty involved, whether they are UK & Commonwealth, American, German, Dutch, Polish, French, collaborator, resistance worker, or whatever. This humanitairan principle of equality towards war dead is actually one of the 1929 and 1949 Geneva Conventions agreements.

Therefore even if the identity is established of an individual whom during the War collaborated with the Germans, their next of kin most definately would be notified (actually this happens quite regularly). Especially as nowadays most of such identifications are estblished by use of DNA testing, for which a DNA sample from the next of kin is needed. So they are aware of the ongoing investigation anyway. Experience shows that even though the next of kin appreciate that their relative (often their father) was on the wrong side and despite of the sometime tragic circumstances under which the individual proves to have been killed, they are still very grateful that their loved one's fate is now finally cleared up.

Dutch collaborators after the War were stateless, Queen Wilhelmina took away their Dutch nationality, which some of them regained after years of imprisonment and hard labour. That is why the remains of former collaborators (mostly having serveds with the German armed forces or in the "Landwacht" Auxiliary Police) normally are re-interred in the Ysselsteyn German War Cemetery. The next of kin are invited to this low key re-interment as to them this means final closure after a disappearance of almost 70 years.

Let me end with a - in my opion - memorable quote by Andy Robertshaw of the National Army Museum: "If you have the chance to identify a War casualty and you do nothing about it, it is like killing them twice."

Squire

 

Well said....like the use of the comment from A Robertshaw.....

 

Yes, I like that too it's very apt. I also agree with the approach of telling the family...... Good or bad it's probably best they know.

 

Thanks Jolly Squire for that informative answer, please understand I was just curious as to how that, and similar cases are dealt with, and as I said, I have every confidence it would be dealt with correctly by those concerned. I do also think that closure is probably the greatest thing that can be done for family's in these unfortunate circumstances.

lofty

 

Hi All,

Just saw Dan Snow's Dig 44 and would agree with you all it's I feel best that the family know....Still I found that one to be excellent show if not a little emotional...

Cheers
Tom

 

Not to worry Lofty! I perfectly understood what you meant. Obviously in cases such as these the next of kin go through intense emotional termoil.

As to the remains shown in this episode of Dig WW2; apparently there are elderly Dutch resistence workers in the area who know exactly who these people were and why they were executed and their bodies disposed of. Despite requests in the regional media to come forward for the sake of closure for the next of kin, they seem to whish to maintain their Resistance code of silence. It is difficult to form an opinion as I guess one can see both sides of the story.

Squire

 

Paul, great pictures. Well done.

Best.

Damiano
(Associazione Linea Gustav)

 

I finally watched the first one yesterday-Previously I had heard nothing but good things about Gerry Chester and now I can see why. He really comes across as a true gent.

Great programme and far better than War Hero in my family IMO. I learnt quite a few things about WW2 in 60 minutes that I didn't know - Two complaints thought:

1. It should have been on national TV

2. It should have been one programme per subject


Dare I say it - I even found the Italian campaign interesting, I'm off to wash my mouth out.





Ps. Paul I still think you should try and get someone to do a Dig in Nieppe Forest
I can't see the logic for not putting it on the national network. Maybe the feedback, which I've heard on the grapevine is very good, will induce a change of heart. Many of us on this thread have been involved with the programme/book in one way or another, so our letters and emails probably won't count, but if others on this forum could contact the BBC it might achieve something. We have had other programmes about Northern Ireland shown on mainstream BBC channels, so why not this one. If it was aired on that oasis of intelligent programming a.k.a BBC4 it would be acccessible and get the publicity in the mainstream listings guides. Putting it on i-player or making accessible for Sky and Freesat viewers works only if those viewers know it exists, and many simply don't.

 

As I've previously stated several times our programme will be shown on BBC1 later in the year, in a condensed one hour version. The three one hours are unique to BBC NI as they paid for it.

 

Just watched the third episode, excellent, as was the whole series.
As a diver the B17 and U-boat dives were particularly interesting.
Great shame the whole series won't be shown on mainland UK BBC, I can't see how it can be condensed into a single 1 hour programme without losing a great deal of fascinating content.

 

I saw the first two episodes of the Canadianized version yesterday. I do not mean to be unkind, and I know that the hard work of hundreds of people were involved. But honestly it was just awful.

I say this for a few reasons.

Firstly, I cannot believe how awful the script was for inaccuracies as well as for the disingenuous manner that the narrative was so needless jazzed up with speculation about how an aircraft "really" might have been caused to crash. "Was it really engine failure?" That sort of thing. Well yes it was - there were witnesses, reports etc. Such sensationalization greatly cheapened the presentation.

Secondly - Factual inaccuracies. (By far the greater problem.)

Finding a gun camera in the Spit 12 site ... then saying that they carried cameras for photo recon and implying that this is what was found. No the aircraft was not a PR Spitfire.

But the part that really made me almost switch off the program was when the host was 'explaining' the design/function of the non metallic structure associated with the (Ski jump) launching facility of the V-1's.

During that segment the guidance system was described as "state of the art" ... and that "fine tuning" of the V-1's guidance system took place in the non metallic building. All nonsense.

The guidance system of the V-1 was crude, as was the entire weapon. It got the job done. If he had been speaking about the A4 / V2 weapon guidance system, then to describe that as state of the art would be more accurate.

The guidance system of the V-1 was hardly state of the art, and the fine tuning of the V-1's was in fact pounding on the steel aircraft with mallets to align the molecules in the steel so as to not derange the compass. These preparations are hardly "fine tuning."

Every show gets the detail of the engine cutting out on the V-1 wrong, and this show was no exception. So I was not surprised when I was told (incorrectly yet again) that the V-1 crashes when it runs out of fuel.

Incorrect. When it has travelled the distance preset, the elevators are deflected to cause the weapon to dive. This negative g manoeuvre interrupted the fuel flow and caused the engine to stop. When the Germans learned of this, they modified the deflection of the elevators to be more gentle and on those later shots the weapon was driven into the ground at a higher speed. But like I said already - every documentary (except - The Secret War) gets this detail wrong - so I can hardly fault this meagre effort.

Film stock - does not match the narration.

Bombers are being discussed - so Dakotas are shown. Not even bombers!

Talk of Britain's cities being decimated are paired with imagery of Stukas. Hardly the aircraft to have decimated cities.

A B-17 is described as suffering mechanical failure. So B-17's under attack are shown. Recollections of a Sunderland gunner are paired with him sitting in the blister of a Catalina (actually a Canso). For no other reason than the Catalina is airworthy - and will make a better show. Well I don't think so. How much better it would have been to have him sitting is an actual Sunderland. (even if it would have to be non-flying museum piece.He could have reminisced about the entering the aircraft. The sights sounds and smells of the Sunderland. He could have shown us where extra ammo was stored. Plenty of details that were not possible with the PBY.

With the millions of feet of film to choose from - you would think that more appropriate footage could have been found/used for all these examples. Yet they were not.

Overall I was amazed at how shoddy and amateurish the entire presentation was. Such glaring errors of omission and commission ruined the program for me.

There are plenty of amateurs out there in the real world who are bugged by such flaws, who would have been happy to lend a hand so that such errors could be avoided in the future. All you have to do is ask.

 

(Quote) KWA---Overall I was amazed at how shoddy and amateurish the entire presentation was. Such glaring errors of omission and commission ruined the program for me. (Quote)

So you will not be watching episode three then.

 

KWA - please would you give me chapter and verse on the business with the non-magnetised building. I did the book for the series, and, as far as the horrendous deadline allowed, I did my own research and worked with sources I believed to be accurate, so avoided such errors as were made regarding the cutting-out of the V-1 engine or the purpose of the camera on Heninger's Spitfire but I actually quoted the voice-over re the purpose of the non-magnetic building. If you can explain further or point me in the right direction, I will put an 'erratum' on my website. And in case anyone thinks I am being holier than thou, I know perfectly well that I will have made my own mistakes/misunderstandings etc - so I wait apprehensively to hear about them! But, dear reader, to err is human; to forgive, divine.
Incidentally, I gather the early Spitfires experienced a similar problem re engine starvation in certain manoeuvres, hence "Miss Shilling's Orifice".
By the way, if you saw the Canadianised version, could you tell me if they used the combat footage from the gun camera mounted on a Spitfire flown by Fred Schofield, the other Canadian pilot featured in the series. I told the Canadian production team I had located some at the IWM - it was not from the aircraft from which he parted company over Crewkerne but from one he flew shortly afterwards. Much appreciated.

If the series suffered from 'the wrong kind of footage' I think this is a common problem. Without commenting specifically on Dig WW2 I can only speak from experience and say book publishers, too, have budgets to stick to, and sometimes an author can beg on bended knees for the inclusion of a particular image or set of images, but if the copyright holder wants a fortune for the use of it there's no way it's going to happen. Some seem to think it is better to turn away business than set a rate affordable by production companies and publishers less well-resourced than Disney and Harper Collins. Even quoting can be a nightmare, when you have a national newspaper (I leave you to guess who owns it) wanting £50 for a mere 15 words, as happened to me a few years ago, and a small niche publisher demanding more than £200 for a quote of less than 50 words. I was almost glad when that publisher went - though, of course I couldn't be, because it must have been awful for the authors who wrote for him. I once wanted to quote from a U-boat veteran interviewed for the famous Thames documentary "The World At War". It wasn't the cost here that was the problem, it was the conditions attached - how many years, which editions etc etc. You can end up with a situation in which the publisher would have to pay whatever might be demanded in the future or else pull the quote from a reprint, with all the production costs associated with that. If you think your book or film will go out in territories beyond your own, additional fees will be levied! Then, when the book comes out, Amazon discounts it by 50%, and , of course, the author only gets 10% of the sale price not the cover price. The publisher's margins are also desperately squeezed, especially when books are illegally scanned onto the net, thus spoiling sales; they have to hold down costs as best they can. Especially for books in niche markets. So while, as a viewer and a reader , I frequently share your frustrations, I also know what it is like on 'the other side'.

 

Good news everyone - have just heard today that "Dig WW2 With Dan Snow" goes out on BBC2 Monday-Wednesday 28/29/30 August. An E-version of the book is also going out, slightly different to the printed version as a few pics will have to be left out for reasons that are explained in my last contribution on this thread.

 

Well as a latecomer to this thread and despite the criticisms above, I would like to offer my congratulations to Paul and Dan for this series. I enjoyed the pictures of the dive off Ireland, but my particular interest was the Arnhem piece.
Having walked the area with John Crosson and his colleagues in 2011 I knew the story, but thought it was a moving story well told. I went back to the White House in June 2012 when I took some friends on an Arnhem tour and I played them the Arnhem footage sat in the room in which the Cassidy family were filmed. Very moving it was to go from there to the spot that he died.
The hotel owners were also pleased to see the footage.
How good also to see a BBC programme give credit to Geert and his team for the remarkable work that they do.

 

Thanks - glad you found it of interest.

 

With due respect KWA, the purpose of the series was not to produce a visual texbook. rather BBC Northern Ireland's remit to the producers for the six one-hour episodes was to illustrate Ulster's contribution to victory in World World War Two.

One should remember, as there was no conscription, the high majority who served were Irishmen from both the north and south of the island. It was an honour for me to serve with them in the North Irish Horse.

Cheers,

Gerry

 

To all. I am a WW2 Veteran, my experiences good or bad will never ever, ever leave me, but "by golly" Iam learning sutch a lot from follow-on members of WW2 Talk. Keep talking, keep threading, or whatever. Yours bob90