Dieppe Uncovered

Discussion in 'Books, Films, TV, Radio' started by roscoe, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. roscoe

    roscoe Banned

    [​IMG]

    Actual Document uncovered by O'Keefe
     
  2. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    Google Youtube.com and look for the 1962 documentary on Dieppe interviews on CBC.
    Monty: Brits were responsible. Nothing was learned from the raid in Dieppe
    Mountbatten: My ego is never going to get in the way of leading men to their doom.
    Crerar: I wish I was somewhere else
    McNaughton: I wish I was with Crerar
    Roberts: I need to pin the blame somewhere else.

    A travesty.
     
  3. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    Google Youtube.com and look for the 1962 documentary on Dieppe interviews on CBC.


    Close Up - The Canadian Raid on Dieppe (1962 Interview) - Part 1 - YouTube




    Monty: Brits were responsible. Nothing was learned from the raid in Dieppe
    Mountbatten: My ego is never going to get in the way of leading men to their doom.
    Crerar: I wish I was somewhere else
    McNaughton: I wish I was with Crerar
    Roberts: I need to pin the blame somewhere else.

    A travesty.


    Agreed 100%
     
  4. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    Actual Document uncovered by O'Keefe


    Roscoe, I have no doubt that Naval Intelligence wanted a 4 rotor, and
    even trained some commandos to go in and get it, as a part of Dieppe.

    But common sense dictates that, if the raid had been successful, the Germans would have reoccupied the town at some point a day or two later.

    They would have immediately started looking for their 4 rotor, because the idea that they wouldn't be concerned about it is sheer nonsense.

    They would have noticed its' disappearance, and changed up everything
    with their codes again anyway.

    The idea would be to get a 4 rotor without the Germans knowing about it.

    Clearly, this would not have happened in Dieppe, so trying to whitewash the raid
    as an 'important intelligence gathering mission" just doesn't hold up
    to any cursory examination.
     
    canuck likes this.
  5. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    Martin,
    Thanks for posting the first link to youtube.
    All the players are there.
    A fiasco of unparalleled proportions.
     
  6. roscoe

    roscoe Banned

    THE GERMANS WOULD HAVE FOUND NOTHING IN THE GERMAN NAVAL HEADQUARTERS RUINS. THEY WOULD HAVE BLOWN IT TO PIECES.


    THE CANADIANS ARRIVED ON THE BEACH 17 MINUTES LATE, THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE WAS LOST. THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO SILENCE THE GUNS AT THE HARBOUR ENTRANCE TO ALLOW HMS LOCUST (A CONVERTED FLAT BOTTOMED GUNBOAT BROUGHT ESPECIALLY OVER FROM THE YANGSEE) TO GO RIGHT INTO THE HARBOUR.

    BECAUSE THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE WAS LOST THE CANADIANS SUFFERED BADLY AT THE NOW ALERTED GERMAN DEFENDERS. HMS LOCUST WHICH HAD COMMANDER RED RYDER VC ONBOARD RECEIVED HIT AFTER HIT FROM THE HARBOUR GUNS. RYDER HAD WON THE VC BY CRASHING HMS CAMBELLTOWN INTO THE DRY DOCK AT ST NAZAIRE THUS RENDERING IT USELESS FOR THE TIRPITZ.

    ONBOARD HMS LOCUST WAS IAN FLEMINGS INTELLIGENCE ASSAULT UNIT. IN CHARGE OF THE I.A.U WAS THE GRANDSON OF FORMER BRITISH PM STANLEY BALDWIN - MAJOR HUNTINGDON-WHITLEY.

    HMS LOCUST RETURNED AND COMMANDER RYDER WENT ONTO HMS CALPE WHERE A DISCUSSION TOOK PLACE WITH THE RAID COMMANDER. ANOTHER FRIGATE HMS FERNIE WAS NEARBY AND ONBOARD STANDING A MERE 700 YARDS OFF DIEPPE BEACH WAS IAN FLEMING HIMSELF. NOW THINK ABOUT THIS, HERE WAS A MAN WHO WAS ULTRA CLEARED AND KNEW THERE WAS TO KNOW ABOUT BRITISH NAVAL INTELLIGENCE, IF THEY HAD CAPTURED FLEMING THE GERMANS WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ALL THEIR CHRISTMASES HAD COME AT ONCE. THERE IS NO REASON TO RISK SUCH AN IMPORTANT PERSON THAT CLOSE TO THE BEACH.

    THE CONFERENCE ONBOARD HMS CALPE DECIDED THAT DESPITE THAT FACT THAT THE RAID WAS GOING PEAR SHAPED THEY WOULD TRY AGAIN TO GET THE I.A.U. INTO THE GERMAN NAVAL HEADQUARTERS. HUNTINGDON-WHITLEY'S UNIT WAS ORDERED TO LAND ON RED BEACH WITH THE ESSEX-SCOTTISH BUT THEIR LANDING CRAFT WAS BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER.

    IF HUNTINGDON - WHITLEY HAD SUCCEDDED IN GETTING ANY BOOTY FROM THE GERMAN NAVAL HQ HE WAS TO SEND THE SIGNAL BULLION AND A FAST CRAFT WAS TO ENTER THE HARBOUR AND TAKE IT FROM HUNTINGDON WHITLEY AND GIVE IT TO FLEMING WHO WOULD THEN TAKE IT ONBOARD HMS FERNIE

    HUNTINGDON-WHITLEY SURVIVED ONLY TO BE KILLED IRONICALLY NEAR TO DIEPPE JUST AFTER D-DAY.

    OPERATION JUBILEE WAS A PINCH RAID THAT WAS UNSUCCESSFUL AND WAS COVERED UP WITH STORIES THAT REALLY HAVE NEVER MADE ANY SENSE.
     
  7. Bernard85

    Bernard85 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    god day roscoe,sm,22august,2012,06:16am,re:dieppe uncovered,it was a useless massacre.instigated by desk bound moorons,as for ian fleming,he came out of the war with all the material he needed for his books,may the Canadians who lost there lives to satify some idiots ego.may they rest in peace,regards bernard85
     
  8. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    Bernard85,
    Wise words. I am in total agreement.
     
  9. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    I recently read Mark Zuehlke's 2012 book, Tragedy at Dieppe.

    30 Commando barely rates a mention. Primarily because they were a reserve and did not land. A surprising fact if you accept that they were the focal point of the raid.
    In any event, Zuehlke describes the Ultra mission as being a sensational theory with many factual and logical holes in it. He dismisses it as not being credible.

    As has been said, Truth remains a casualty of the Dieppe operation.
     
  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Finally saw this on Sunday night and was pleasantly surprised that the documentation outdid the docudrama. I'm left with a couple of questions.

    Firstly, whilst the 'pinch' may not have been the raison d'etre of RUTTER, it may well have been a factor in resurrecting it as JUBILEE. There was a brief mention of a couple of the units' detailed orders, but no comparison with their RUTTER orders that might have demonstrated a change of objective between the two plans. I assume not much remains of unit orders for RUTTER.

    Secondly, would the Naval HQ in Dieppe have been big enough or important enough to warrant an Enigma link? I can understand a U-Boat or a far-flung Norwegian outpost having one, but not coastal craft or a piddly local HQ with landlines. It also seems a little unlikely the whole of the Kriegsmarine used the same codebooks. Still, whether or not it was the whole point of the raid, the pinch was clearly seen as a worthwhile gamble given the worsening situation in the Atlantic.

    The programme did make me have a quick look at British Intelligence in the Second World War, Part 2 of which threw up this nugget (published in 1981!)


     
    17thDYRCH and Chris C like this.
  11. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Some of you may be aware of this, but I wasn't. It's another example of a wacky scheme under the umbrella of the raid.

    A contemporary press celebrity was US Lt-Col Hillsinger who lost a leg when the Berkeley was bombed towards the end of the raid. At the time, he was merely an observer but he'd originally had a different role:

    JUBILEE Hillsinger Plan A.JPG

    Considering the actual and proposed efforts made to resolve the RAF's issues - radar and FW190s - a potential solution to the U-Boat menace ought to have had a very high priority, being a national, rather than a service, concern. Whether that in itself was enought to tilt the balance between launching JUBILEE or letting RUTTER rot, I don't know...

    The extract is from some COHQ odds and sods in DEFE 2/707.
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Operation Jubilee: A Pinch Raid at Dieppe?

    Operation Jubilee: A Pinch Raid at Dieppe?
    On 19 August 1942, a six thousand strong combined Allied landing force took part in a raid on Dieppe, Northern France. Sixty-seven percent of these became casualties. The raid has gone down in history as a catastrophe conceived by Lord Mountbatten. With the help of 100,000 pages of classified British military files, however, David O’Keefe has uncovered a pinch mission undertaken at Dieppe, concealed by the raid, to steal one of the new German 4-rotor Enigma code machines. In this first of two episodes, David tells James about the main raid, undertaken in the majority by his fellow Canadians, and explains the evidence which supports the theory that this was a pinch raid, not just by opportunity, but by design.

    The Enigma of Dieppe

    The Enigma of Dieppe
    Almost 80 years after the raid on Dieppe on 19 August 1942, David O’Keefe has uncovered the secret mission to pinch Enigma related material which took place under the cover of the six-thousand strong landing force. In this second part of David’s conversation with James, he tells us about the outcomes of the raid and how his research has answered the long held questions of veterans of Dieppe.
     
  13. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    If he actually has solid evidence, great. But there is a Canadian obsession with trying to - justify? - the deaths of so many soldiers other than "a bad plan" and on the face of it this looks like yet another attempt.
     
    Steve49 and TTH like this.
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    That's not the impression I've got round here. O'Keefe appears to have turned up evidence but rather than discuss or challenge it, it tends to get dismissed out of hand as some sort of slight on Canadian collective memory.

    Understanding the reason(s) for the raid will not justify the deaths in isolation; that can still be argued until the cows come home.
     
    Chris C likes this.
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This one was posted September 2020...

    The Forgotten Ally: Canada
    22 minutes Posted Sep 11, 2020 at 5:00 pm.

    https://podbay.fm/p/dan-snows-history-hit/e/1599840007

    SHOW NOTES
    Tim Cook joined me on the pod to discuss how Canadian contributions are frequently overlooked or diminished in discussions of the War. Most major war histories are written by British or American authors, who give little credit to the Canadians as a separate fighting force.
     
    Chris C likes this.
  16. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Touche. That's a good point. I'm guilty of being close minded here.
     
  17. Frederick L. Bradbury

    Frederick L. Bradbury Horace Frederick Bradbury (MY Dieppe Veteran)

    Yes and i believe the RCE Engineers EVERS Party assignment of the German Marine "Post Office" also corroborates this high level search and subsequent complete demolition procedure/scenario . In fact the Locust was due to motor into the outer harbor AND ALSO thru COLBERT BRIDGE into the inner harbor and ??? this is where it gets really interesting: From Frederick Leonard Bradbury
     
  18. Frederick L. Bradbury

    Frederick L. Bradbury Horace Frederick Bradbury (MY Dieppe Veteran)

    ---------------------------------------------
    Sir:
    How about the action in the Channel hours BEFORE any of the landings at Dieppe where German ArmedTrawler UJ-1404 was sunk (Captain killed) and (German pow from UJ-1404 taken back to England)

    It said that "She carried a Debeg 40/70 watt W/T transmitter and receiver. The W/T office was adjacent to the Commanding Officer's cabin below the bridge."

    My question is : Did any Allied personnel get onboard before she was sunk? is this all that UJ-1404 carried onboard, since i always question an official report
     

Share This Page