Dieppe Raid, 19th August, 1942

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by 17thDYRCH, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I have seen that the level of this discussion has fallen to the use of arguments as : Canadian soldiers were led to their death by incompetent aristocratic (of course) British officers while the truth is that the plans for Jubilee were approved by the Canadian commanders .


    I am fed up to the back teeth with this .
     
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  2. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Sheldrake,
    You and LJ drink from the same bottle and share the same fence. Stalin enjoyed that one day? The distraction from the Eastern front only to wait 22 months until June of 1944? Ludicrous.
    "it was a necessary test of tactics-and that defies a distinction between success and fail." Horseshit is my reply, or, as I alluded to in an earlier reply to your fellow fence sitter " horse excrement ".


    I am not fence sitting. It is just that history is more complicated than yes/ no or media hyped witch hunts, conspiracy theories and other simplistic arguments.. .

    No one involved ion planning or leading the Dieppe raid would have been happy with the heavy losses. Had they foreseen the losses the raid would not have gone ahead. The 600 lost on the St Nazaire raid was seen as high. No one would have sanctioned the loss of thousands.

    However, on balance the benefits of the raid outweighed the losses incurred.

    1. Two SS panzer divisions and two bomber groups were absent from the Eastern front at a time when Stalingrad was a decisive place. The switch of resources was not known at the time. The Irony is that Hitler ordered the move before the raid was launched because the Luftwaffe had noticed the build up of shipping.
    .
    2. Getting the balance of firepower to support the assault was key to the success of D Day. If the Normandy invasion had been delivered with 1942 techniques or worse had the British agreed to launch Op Sledgehammer in 1942 the results would have looked like the 1st day of the Somme. an the casualty list ten times higher than Dieppe.

    3. Dieppe provided a good argument against the pressure to launch a "Second front Now!" A premature D Day would have been one of the few scenarios that would allow Hitler to win the war.

    4. The apparent success of the German Atlantic wall resulted in overconfidence and mal-deployment.

    the first two were two of the objectives to be achieved by Op Jubilee. The other two were unintended consequences, but still benefited the allied cause. .

    Sheldrake,
    A good summation. For Canadians, OP Jubileee will forever be a sensitive issue.
     
  3. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    LJ,
    I can only point to the slaughter as evidenced by Canuck's post where he shows photos of the graves. So, let's move on to another debate.
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  5. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    Have you read the book? I'd say this is too harsh. O'Keefe has managed to locate a lot of smoke, though I'd like some more specific documents to be sure it's fire. Even if he's not there yet (and perhaps he never finds conclusive proof), I think his motives are valid.
     
  6. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Kevin,
    The documentation which O'Keefe put forward was really nothing that wasn't known already. The critics felt he had sensationalized a fairly minor part of the raid and his conclusions were a stretch. I can't speak to his motives but the entire package was really a non-event and added little to a better understanding of the operation.
    The fact that 40 Commando remained offshore as a floating reserve force during the early part of the raid is further evidence that they were not the focal point of the operation. They were finally ordered ashore by Ham-Roberts under the mistaken belief that the RHLI had secured the beach. Leaving the engagement of the Commandos to the discretion of the Canadian operational commander is simply inconsistent with O'Keefe's "primary objective" argument.
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    No apologies for bumping this truly wonderful thread

    Ron
     
  8. Shirt Off

    Shirt Off New Member

    A free downloadable article on the RAF involvement at Dieppe in Canadian Military History can be found here:

    http://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh/vol25/iss1/12/

    The references show links to the IWM oral histories, in which the soldiers, airmen and journalists say some very interesting things.
     
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  9. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Politics?
    Many have argued that the number of gallantry awards for the Dieppe raid, particularly in VC's, was grossly disproportionate.

    "This proceeded in stages, the first of which culminated in the publication of Dieppe-related awards in the London Gazette of October 2nd, 1942. The scale
    of these varied according to services; their distribution was as follows: London, and the War Office. The matter was further discussed with Combined Operations
    Headquarters and with the GOC First Canadian Corps. By August 26th, 1942, the general policy had been laid down. First Canadian Corps instructed the
    General Officer Commanding, 2nd Canadian Division (Major General Roberts) to submit recommendations for 100 immediate awards in respect of Dieppe operations.
    It was suggested that 40 should go to officers and 60 to other ranks. First Canadian Corps also requested that approximately 150 Mentions in Despatches
    be submitted with similar officer/OR proportions."

    http://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1033&context=cmh

    2 VC's awarded for a 5 hour limited action (plus one for the Commandos) and only 4 for the entire Canadian 1st Army (180,000 men) over the course of 11 months of continuous action after June 6th.Canada had a total of 3,369 casualties at Dieppe vs 18,700 in Normandy alone
     
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  10. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Canuck,

    Politics and more Politics. Sad to say....
     
  11. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    In previous posts I have mentioned Ron Reynolds who was one of the veterans who accompanied our group to Dieppe. It's only fitting that I salute this man and provide some highlights of his life. I have attached a photo I took of him at Beny sur Mer cemetery in 2007, some Dieppe photos and the cliffs at Puys.

    Ron was a wonderful and spirited man and an outspoken critic of the raid. During our visit he stopped at tombstone after tombstone in the Dieppe cemetery and described his close friendships with dozens of the men buried there.

    Ron almost missed the Dieppe Raid. While stationed in England with Toronto's Royal Regiment, the handsome and high-spirited 22-year-old didn't want for English girlfriends - and often went AWOL to see them. Returning late to camp on May 19, 1942, he found that the regiment was pulling out. After a bawling-out from his sergeant, Private Reynolds was ordered to jump into one of the departing army trucks.

    On the morning of Aug. 19, 1942, Ron landed with the Royals on Blue Beach, at Puys. Wounded in the foot, Ron limped into Dieppe a prisoner. He was sent to a hospital in Rouen and eventually to Stalag VIIIB. For more than a year the Canadian Dieppe prisoners had their wrists shackled.

    After the war, Ron returned to his family home in Toronto's east end. Like many POW's he was left troubled by his wartime ordeal, but post-traumatic stress was then little understood. Though he quickly recovered his sunny disposition, he would suffer from nightmares for the rest of his life but became a founding member of the Dieppe Veterans Association. He retired in Port Hope, Ontario.

    In 2010, Ron had to have a leg amputated because of circulation problems and died eight weeks later from heart failure.
    On Aug. 19, 2010, the 68th anniversary of the Dieppe Raid, Ron's family stood on Blue Beach and scattered his ashes as he had requested in his will.

    Ron Reynolds
    Born Sept. 29, 1919, in Toronto. Died April 18 in Cobourg, Ont., aged 90.
    R.I.P
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Tomorrow marks the 74th anniversary of the raid on Dieppe.
    Lest We Forget.
     
  13. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    Personal accounts - Essex Scottish

     
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  14. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Tim
    A great find. Nothing like personal accounts to verify the disaster known as Op Jubilee
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

     
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  16. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Interesting.
     

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