Dieppe Raid, 19th August, 1942

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by 17thDYRCH, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    I disagree with post 86
     
  2. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    LJ, the question asked was if you have been to Dieppe?
     
  3. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    LJ,
    One last question to you. Would you think that a casualty rate of 40%+ to be satisfactory.

    I am a Canadian.
     
  4. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    L J
    2 brigades landed with supoort troops...isnt that considered a Divisional level attack? FYI the Canadians losses were in the range of 70% with no objectives acheived, on what scale cant this not be considered a disaster? no tanks got off the promenade all lost their tracks on the impassable cobble; which, also crippled the infantry in their attempt escape the writhing fire. the Germans didnt have any atillery that could take on tanks because the ground was known to be impassable to tanks. While you are out s)trolling why dont you try to have a walk up a 20% grade covered with 3" cobble' in a pair of patent leather shoes held together with metal studs (for traction), while carrying 30 kilos of Ammo and supplies. No worries there wont be anyone shooting at you. Just MHO. By far Canada's worst day of the war.
    Hong kong was another peicemeal strategy which cost 100's of Canadian lives for no gain, again the defence was lead by second sons and nare do wells of the of aristacracy.
    Seems every August we have to go though this again.
    Matt
     
  5. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I have been at Dieppe, I have been at Passendale, at Tyne Cot,at Langemark,etc and I am planning to go to Vimy,where 3600 Canadians were killed = 4 times more than at Dieppe .
     
  6. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I never said that a casualty raid of 40 % would be satisfactory,it would depend on the circumstances : some times, a casalty rate of 5 % would be to high, in other cases 40 % would not be to high : the losses of the USMC at Saipan were high,but that does not mean that Saipan was a disaster .
     
  7. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I find it also more than unfair (and this is an euphemism) to blame Britain for the Canadian losses at Dieppe : if you want to blame some one ,blame the Germans .

    Maybe one should consider the following points:

    a) The Canadian government did send troops to Britain

    b)These troops were committed at Dieppe with the consent of the Canadian government,without this consent,no Canadian troops could be committed at Dieppe,thus it is not so,as was writing some one,that Canadian troops were picked for a suicide mission

    c)I repeat : I object to the use of the number of losses in this discussion :

    At Dieppe,900 Canadians were KIA,at Vimy 3600, in Normandy 2336

    Thus ? .
     
  8. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I object to the use of a German source to give a judgement about Jubilee .

    I disagree with your comment about Nuremberg : this raid was not the most disastrous raid from BC,it was the raid with the most losses .(in absolute numbers),because in may 1940 there was a joint British/French attack on the brodges on the Meuse,and ,in % the losses were higher ,and none said it was a disaster .

    A military operation can be a disaster with 5 % losses and a success with 25 % losses .
     
  9. L J

    L J Senior Member

    2)Proof that the defense was lead by second sons and nare do wells of the aristocracy ? Besides,why would this be something bad ?
     
  10. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    On what grounds?

    Simply another source of insight and given that they were the victors, less tainted by any motivation to justify or rationalize?
     
  11. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    A quibble if we're trying to provide accurate information here. I toured Dieppe with a reputable Canadian guide last month and he indicated that almost all of the tanks did in fact make it off the beach but were stopped from advancing into the town by anti-tank barriers. The failure of the attached engineers to deal with these due to enormous casualties resulted in most of the tanks returning to the beach where over the course of the morning they did eventually throw tracks as they maneuvered. The nature of the cobble was well known and similar to many (most?) UK beaches.

    No sources, but worth digging into if you are interested.
     
  12. gpo son

    gpo son Senior Member

    A quibble if we're trying to provide accurate information here. I toured Dieppe with a reputable Canadian guide last month and he indicated that almost all of the tanks did in fact make it off the beach but were stopped from advancing into the town by anti-tank barriers. The failure of the attached engineers to deal with these due to enormous casualties resulted in most of the tanks returning to the beach where over the course of the morning they did eventually throw tracks as they maneuvered. The nature of the cobble was well known and similar to many (most?) UK beaches.

    No sources, but worth digging into if you are interested.


    klambie
    Not to quibble, your quibble but the promenade is not the beach and as you aptly point out (but I will be more direct) the engineeres who were to blow the obstacles were all casualties, the tanks that reached the promenade (all 4 of them) returned to the beach and resolutely remained in their tanks to provide whatever cover fire they could until their ammo was depleted. they then wisely chose to remain in their tanks rather than add to the casuatly toll of those unprotected on the beach. as for the cobble they friggin' well should have known it was impassable to tanks before when they planned this fiasco.
     
  13. klambie

    klambie Senior Member

    A quibble if we're trying to provide accurate information here. I toured Dieppe with a reputable Canadian guide last month and he indicated that almost all of the tanks did in fact make it off the beach but were stopped from advancing into the town by anti-tank barriers. The failure of the attached engineers to deal with these due to enormous casualties resulted in most of the tanks returning to the beach where over the course of the morning they did eventually throw tracks as they maneuvered. The nature of the cobble was well known and similar to many (most?) UK beaches.

    No sources, but worth digging into if you are interested.


    klambie
    Not to quibble, your quibble but the promenade is not the beach and as you aptly point out (but I will be more direct) the engineeres who were to blow the obstacles were all casualties, the tanks that reached the promenade (all 4 of them) returned to the beach and resolutely remained in their tanks to provide whatever cover fire they could until their ammo was depleted. they then wisely chose to remain in their tanks rather than add to the casuatly toll of those unprotected on the beach. as for the cobble they friggin' well should have known it was impassable to tanks before when they planned this fiasco.


    After a quick bit of digging, 27 tanks landed and probably 15 made it off the beach. Not the "almost all" I stated, but a substantial number. The count of 4 you mention (some say 3) is not accurate. The North Irish link below indicates only 5 failed to get off the beach due to the chert and attempts to describe the fate of all 30 tanks committed. The CMH paper summarizes 29 attempted to land, 2 drowned, 15 across the seawall (10 of which later returned to the beach where 1 was immobilized due to chert). Of those that didn't get off the beach, 4 had tracks broken by shellfire, 4 by chert and 3 likely by chert, though it is uncertain, 1 remained on the beach and was mobile throughout.

    http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq108.pdf
    para 2-7

    http://northirishhorse.net/articles/Dieppe/16.html

    http://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh/vol4/iss1/6
    Abstract only. Canadian Military History Vol 4, No. 1 "The Calgary Tanks at Dieppe", Hugh G. Henry.
     
  14. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    LJ,

    Did you view youtube clip posted by WIlls? Would you accept Monty's view of the fiasco?

    How can you compare Vimy with Dieppe. Two vastly different wars. That is like comparing British troop losses on Gold and Sword beaches with the Battle of the Somme where the Brits lost 80,000 men on a single day; July 1, 1916.
     
  15. ww2ni

    ww2ni Senior Member

    What are your views in relation to the tasking within the Dieppe Operation by 30 Commando to seize an Enigma Machine from the local German HQ?
     
  16. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    This was discussed with a book release and subsequent documentary aired on the history channel last year.
    If memory serves me, another thread on Dieppe was started.
    I would say that history was being rewritten. for profit by the author and the history channel.
     
  17. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    LJ,
    Please depart from the fence that you are sitting on.
    Was Dieppe a success or failure?
     
  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    That is a simplistic question.

    For who was it a success? The men who died? or the Germans who thought the Atlantic wall was vindicated but disillusioned in 1944? .

    Arguably it was a success for Joe Stalin. On the basis of the build up of shipping, Hitler anticipated the Dieppe raid and ordered two panzer divisions, a parachute division and two bomber groups to deploy from the Eastern front to France.

    It was a necessary test of tactics - and that defies a distinction between success and fail. the tactics for an opposed landing 1942 style did not work - FAI:L but was ti better to know that these methods not work with a test with a single division or to have found out when the whole army failed? The Dieppe approach to landings - attempting surpise had worked up to that time in NW Europe and worked in North Africa, Sicily and Italy.
     
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  19. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Sheldrake,
    You and LJ drink from the same bottle and share the same fence. Stalin enjoyed that one day? The distraction from the Eastern front only to wait 22 months until June of 1944? Ludicrous.
    "it was a necessary test of tactics-and that defies a distinction between success and fail." Horseshit is my reply, or, as I alluded to in an earlier reply to your fellow fence sitter " horse excrement ".
     
  20. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    Sheldrake,
    You and LJ drink from the same bottle and share the same fence. Stalin enjoyed that one day? The distraction from the Eastern front only to wait 22 months until June of 1944? Ludicrous.
    "it was a necessary test of tactics-and that defies a distinction between success and fail." Horseshit is my reply, or, as I alluded to in an earlier reply to your fellow fence sitter " horse excrement ".


    I am not fence sitting. It is just that history is more complicated than yes/ no or media hyped witch hunts, conspiracy theories and other simplistic arguments.. .

    No one involved ion planning or leading the Dieppe raid would have been happy with the heavy losses. Had they foreseen the losses the raid would not have gone ahead. The 600 lost on the St Nazaire raid was seen as high. No one would have sanctioned the loss of thousands.

    However, on balance the benefits of the raid outweighed the losses incurred.

    1. Two SS panzer divisions and two bomber groups were absent from the Eastern front at a time when Stalingrad was a decisive place. The switch of resources was not known at the time. The Irony is that Hitler ordered the move before the raid was launched because the Luftwaffe had noticed the build up of shipping.
    .
    2. Getting the balance of firepower to support the assault was key to the success of D Day. If the Normandy invasion had been delivered with 1942 techniques or worse had the British agreed to launch Op Sledgehammer in 1942 the results would have looked like the 1st day of the Somme. an the casualty list ten times higher than Dieppe.

    3. Dieppe provided a good argument against the pressure to launch a "Second front Now!" A premature D Day would have been one of the few scenarios that would allow Hitler to win the war.

    4. The apparent success of the German Atlantic wall resulted in overconfidence and mal-deployment.

    the first two were two of the objectives to be achieved by Op Jubilee. The other two were unintended consequences, but still benefited the allied cause. .
     
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