Did the Japanese deserve the Atomic Bomb?

Read the Truman address in the same article:

“I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb. Its production and its use were not lightly undertaken by this Government. But we knew that our enemies were on the search for it. We know now how close they were to finding it. And we knew the disaster which would come to this Nation, and to all peace-loving nations, to all civilization, if they had found it first…Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans. “We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan’s power to make war. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us…It is an awful responsibility which has come to us. We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies; and we pray that He may guide us to use it in His ways and for His purposes.”

 

War is a complete breakdown in civilization. So its not a question of civility. Allied estimates put American casulties at over 1 000 000 is there were an invasion of mainland Japan. Japanese casulties would be higher.

 

War is a complete breakdown in civilization. So its not a question of civility. Allied estimates put American casulties at over 1 000 000 is there were an invasion of mainland Japan. Japanese casulties would be higher.

Japan was asking for terms before the US drop the bomb. were they not?


The USA also bombed Japan like the RAF did Germany but would not do that to the Germans.

 

Japan was asking for terms before the US drop the bomb. were they not?

The Japanese government? They were not.

The USA also bombed Japan like the RAF did Germany but would not do that to the Germans.

Of course they wouldn't, the entire 8th Air Force were there just for the sightseeing.

 

The USA also bombed Japan like the RAF did Germany but would not do that to the Germans


Tell that to the citizens of Dresden in the daylight hours after the RAF left...

 

Japan was looking for terms to end the war, and we all know what happened in Germany when they went for an armistice rather than a surrender. The Germans felt that they had not been beaten and had been let down by the politicians, is we got WW2. In Japan they were looking to hang on to many of the territories that they had captured, and the conditions they were laying down as a basis for peace talks were not acceptable to the Allies.

 

Japan was looking for terms to end the war, and we all know what happened in Germany when they went for an armistice rather than a surrender. The Germans felt that they had not been beaten and had been let down by the politicians, is we got WW2. In Japan they were looking to hang on to many of the territories that they had captured, and the conditions they were laying down as a basis for peace talks were not acceptable to the Allies.

Six months before Pearl Harbor the Naval General Staff submitted a reprt at the Emperor's request, a study of war prospects. Its broad strategy was that Japan could wage war for eighteen months, until June 1943. After that Japan should negotiate a peace or she would be defeated and lose everything so far gained. Further studies after the june 1943 deadline had passed concluded that Japan faced defeat and negotiations would be very difficult.

Since the fall of Singapore Hirohito had been reminding his ministers never to lose a chance to negotiate an advantageious deal for peace. In fact in 1941 the IJN had installed code machines and clerks in Switzerland. The group was charged with keeping negotiation channels open and maintain contact with US Intelligence. The Emperor was dismayed when he discovered that the USA was not interested in any negotiations.

Lord Privy Seal Marquis Kido Koichi in January 1944 presented to his emperor a draft that had been requested several months before on the prospects of surrender. In a most cynical exercise in politicking and disregard for all but the preservation of imperial succession and polity [kokutai], he advised that so far the war had not come home to the islands with any severity yet and that the polulation might resent the cost in lives and treasure if surrender were offered immediately.

He advocated that the Japanese people must suffer considerabley more privation and disruption than they do at present in order that they feel that they are letting the Emperor down and not fighting hard enough. That way, much later they will feel obligated to support him rather than resent him for ending the war too soon and wasting so many lives for so little gain.

When defeat was realised as inevitable, approaches through the Russian connection with the Allies were made and pressed by Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka with his Russian counterpart Vyasheslav Molotov. But the Russians were still smarting over the loss in the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-05 and the extended occupation of a huge slice of Siberia during and following WW1. As well, the Japanese had managed to entice away from Russian influence most Tartar tribes in Inner Mongolia which was facilitated by the long shared border with Manchukuo. Further Japanese incursions into Russian territory at Nomonhan [1939] and Lake Khasan [1938] near Chenkufeng where the Russian, Korean and Chinese borders coincide, were not conducive to garnering favours from Russia.

Russian armoured divisions invaded Manchukuo on 9th Aug 1945, driving all before them. Stalin wanted a piece of the spoils in the east with as little effort as possible. But in fact, Russia suffered more casualties than the Japanese in that conflict.

The Voice of the Crane was heard by his subjects from a recording broadcast on NHK Radio on 15t Aug announcing the unconditional surrender. Very few understood the language as it was announced in an archaic form of Japanese.

Much of the detail here is drawn from JAPAN'S IMPERIAL CONSPIRACY by Paul Bergamini. This is probably the best history of the Japanese involvemen in WW2 that is currently available. A copy was for sale on Ebay a couple of months ago. I recommend it to every student of the Pacific War 1941-45 and of the Sino-Japanese War 1937-45.

 

Six months before Pearl Harbor the Naval General Staff submitted a report at the Emperor's request, a study of war prospects. Its broad strategy was that Japan could wage war for eighteen months, until June 1943. After that Japan should negotiate a peace or she would be defeated and lose everything so far gained.

Plunging a nation into war on the ill-conceived premise that it could be ended peacefully through negotiation, at a time of your choosing, remains a mind bogglingly naive assumption.

 

Sounds a lot like.....

"If you cannot win - Don't lose."

Know your enemy also comes to mind.

The Americans were never going to settle after Pearl Harbor!

 

Russian armoured divisions invaded Manchukuo on 9th Aug 1945, driving all before them. Stalin wanted a piece of the spoils in the east with as little effort as possible. But in fact, Russia suffered more casualties than the Japanese in that conflict.

What is your source for this? Do you have some statistic?

 

What is your source for this? Do you have some statistic?


I'm a little concerned that I cannot remember where I read this. I have a feeling it was a URL attached to a message in WW2Talk about Japanese atrocities and only a couple of days ago.

It surprised me to read this allegation, but as I remember now precise figures were given in the message.

I could be wrong and my memory faulty and I apologise for not being more precise. If someone has better intelligence on this I'd be most interested.

I am looking into this myself.............I hate oversights like this because I must correct another in my previous message.

In dealing with Molotov, I indicated that the Japanese representative was Yosuke Matsuoka. This is wrong. By the time of the surrender negotiations Matsuoka was a very ill man and living his last days in Japan. He had been replaced three years earlier by Naotake Sato as ambassador.

It was a touching scene in Molotov's office on 8th August. Sato was confident, after being brushed off for so long by the Russian foreign minister, that permission for the special peace-negotiating mission of Prince Fumimaro Konoye [former prime minister and intimate advisor to the emperor] would be given and a settlement saving some face for Japan was possible.

However, Molotov swept aside his enthusiastic welcoming words and in the ensuing silence read the declaration of war to the startled ambassador who raised the question of the neutrality pact between the two nations.

In another one of those cynical episodes in politics, Molotov agreed to a six hour delay so that Sato could inform his government. The Russian, wishing to be seen to be diplomatically accommodating, replied affirmatively and said the message could be coded if necessary which was a diplomatic concession under the circumstances. But Sato's cable never reached Tokyo.

The first indication of war that Japan received was when a vast tide of Russian armour poured over the Manchurian border at midnight 8-9 August. Lensen reports [see below] that Russian arms also invaded northern Korea, southern Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. These last two territories were awarded to Russia in the surrender settlement after having lost them in the Russo-Japanese war 1905-05

This detail was drawn from BEHIND JAPAN'S SURRENDER by Lester Brooks. This is an eminently readable history of the period and is a great companion to STRANGE NEUTRALITY Soviet-Japanese Relations During the Second World War 1941-1945 by George Alexander Lensen. My copy of this book has a dedication signed by the author.

If someone could point me to a bio of Lensen I’d appreciate it. He has written extensively on East Asian affairs. Neither Google nor Wiki are any help up to Google page 11.

 

From Wiki:

Casualties and losses

Soviet:
9,726 KIA/MIA
24,425 WIA

Japan:
83,737 KIA
640,276 POWs

As source for this is given Glantz, David M. & House, Jonathan (1995), "When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler"

More about Soviet invasion of Manchuria you can find here (and the similar statistic for casualties (it's from same author))

Leavenworth Papers No. 7 (August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria)


This is all I could find about George Alexander Lensen

Hokkaido University Library - Personal Collections George Alexander Lensen

 

In another one of those cynical episodes in politics, Molotov agreed to...

The first indication of war that Japan received was when a vast tide of Russian armour poured over the Manchurian border at midnight 8-9 August.

Wow! Those Perfidious Albionese, sorry, Russians! Quite the opposite to the advance warning Adm. Kimmel got from the Japanese Consul in Honolulu

 

From Wiki:

Casualties and losses

Soviet:
9,726 KIA/MIA
24,425 WIA

Japan:
83,737 KIA
640,276 POWs

As source for this is given Glantz, David M. & House, Jonathan (1995), "When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler"

More about Soviet invasion of Manchuria you can find here (and the similar statistic for casualties (it's from same author))

Leavenworth Papers No. 7 (August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria)


This is all I could find about George Alexander Lensen

Hokkaido University Library - Personal Collections George Alexander Lensen
　
　
Thankyou Sol,

I'm aware of the Leavenworth papers and especially of David Glantz. I wanted to consult his works about the capacity for Russia to have invaded the Kurils. Some claimed that Russia had insufficient landing barges to successfull re-occupy those islands, and I was prepared to acknowledge a severe lack of ship to shore transport.
　
　
I thought paratroopers might have been the means of occupation. The Russians had no shortage of well trained manpower and transport after the defeat of Germany. They organised for vast quantities of German industrial capacity to be railed east.
　
　
Can you provide any enlightenment as to the island hopping capacity of the Russian navy etc in the east?


While this may appear somewhat off topic, the Russian threat of an occupation of northern Japan late in WW2 was feared by both Japan and the Allies. That threat was a significant factor in the decision to use nuclear weapons by the USA.
　
　
Russia's declaration of war against Japan 8-9 Aug 1945, IMHO, was critical in hastening the surrender, even though they concentrated their attention to the mainland of Asia and the Kurils.

 

While this may appear somewhat off topic, the Russian threat of an occupation of northern Japan late in WW2 was feared by both Japan and the Allies. That threat was a significant factor in the decision to use nuclear weapons by the USA.

BP I still can't agree with you that threat of Soviet occupation part of Japan was a significant factor in the decision to use nuclear weapons. In Yalta 1944 Roosevelt asked for Soviet support in the U.S. Pacific War against Japan, specifically invading Japan. And if I'm not wrong the same thing was asked in Potsdam (I'm not very familiar with politics during the war). The first Atom Bomb was dropped before Soviet Invasion and the second just couple of hours after it. And I don't think that anybody can predict that Soviet will crush the Kwantung Army so fast. While some US officials and commanders maybe had fear of Soviets I don't think that this had any significant role in Truman's decision to use Atom Bombs.

They organised for vast quantities of German industrial capacity to be railed east.

I don't see how this had any impact on Soviet operations in the Far East. Yes they transferred whole fabrics from the Eastern Germany to SU but they didn't use any new weapon designed by Germans during campaign or that this anable them to produce more transport planes and ship in such short time before start of operations.

I wanted to consult his works about the capacity for Russia to have invaded the Kurils. Some claimed that Russia had insufficient landing barges to successfull re-occupy those islands, and I was prepared to acknowledge a severe lack of ship to shore transport.
　
I thought paratroopers might have been the means of occupation. The Russians had no shortage of well trained manpower and transport after the defeat of Germany.

Soviet naval power in the far east was very limited. 2 cruisers and 11 destroyers were only "bigger" ship available in August 1945 and it's questionable were they all operational. Kuril Islands operations were conducted after Japan's capitulation on 18th August, and only after it was obvious that Soviet troops in Manchuria and Sakhalin had achieved victories in first half of August. Shumshir landing was supported by only 64 ships, boats and barges which made large logistic problems to only one rifle division which took part in landing.

Yes it's true that Soviets had Airborne forces but it's questionable how many of them were available for operations. Same for the transport aicrafts.

Russia's declaration of war against Japan 8-9 Aug 1945, IMHO, was critical in hastening the surrender, even though they concentrated their attention to the mainland of Asia and the Kurils.


It was the Soviet Union which declared war to Japan not Russia. And while Soviet invasion of Manchuria had some impact on Japan decision to capitulate as I said Kuril Island's operation took place after capitulation so they couldn't have any direct impact on it.

 

Wow! Those Perfidious Albionese, sorry, Russians! Quite the opposite to the advance warning Adm. Kimmel got from the Japanese Consul in Honolulu
Well, the assumed interception of Sato's cable advising his government of Russia's declaration is confidently based on accepted human behaviour.
Millions of flyers were printed at Tinian Base warning the inhabitants of Hiroshima.
Adm.Husband E.Kimmel was very poorly treated by his superiors.
MacArthur was equally culpable in the destruction of nearly the entire air fleet in the Philippines and was promoted! The intelligence he received from more localised sources was much better and more precise than that given to Kimmel.
Both MacArthur and Charles de Gaulle were, IMHO, so alike. They were self-important, self-promoting figureheads made to look good by the quality of those who served under them. MacArthur never really impressed his peers in the armed services.
　

 

Both MacArthur and Charles de Gaulle were, IMHO, so alike. They were self-important, self-promoting figureheads...


And thus more skilled/experienced at manipulating the press in their favour?

 

My thoughts on the subject thread...

The 'value' of the atomic bomb was the instant return of peace.

Nobody deserves the atomic bomb. Immensely unpeaceable actions might?

 

No innocent can ever have collective responsibility.

This tread always makes me think of this.


grave of the fireflies part 1 English - YouTube

 

Well they didn't deserve it as such but it was the least costly way to end the war. I know they still caused massive destruction to the cities they hit but had the US invaded Japan at least 100,000 American troops were predicted to die and many more Japanese. Plus if America invaded women and children would also be used as soldiers. I believe they were being trained for this purpose in preparation of an American invasion. Also, if the US invaded I think they would have taken out their revenge on all of Japan just as the Soviets did when they captured Berlin. Women would be raped (if they weren't already shot from combat) and maybe used as sex slaves. The atomic bombs weren't the only reasons Japan surrendered however. The Russians were invading the Japanese northern territories such as Manchuria, Mongolia and Korea and were actually planning an invasion of Hokkaido, the northern island of Japan before the Americans would have invaded Honshu. Sorry if this offends anyone but I don't think the Japanese can talk about atrocities considering the nightmarish, unimaginable things they did to POWs. I am sorry to hear about your grandmother though.