Piaf. Hi I like your name, for I loved the little Sparrow Edith. I have a war time recording of her singing Jatendrai.... The one song that will always be associated with Normandy. Are there corn field still grown North of Caen?
Yes Brian there still Corn fields grown north of Caen, farmers get a grant from the government for growing the stuff. You also know me better by my real name. Best wishes Gill
Sapper,Chris,Gill, I know it was a small thing and certainly wouldn't have made much difference to the PBI tramping through it but walking through corn is lot harder, than wheat. it cuts you and trips you up all the while the really deadly stuff is flying around. It seems to me it must have made the advances even more intolerable. It sure changes the image in my mind. Matt
In those far off days there was a lot of wheat or cornfields North of Caen. They were a damned nuisance at times while enabling cover at others. I owe my life to the height of the corn..... The other thing that many may find quite strange is "Dew" advancing through the cornfields early in the morning and you soon became saturated with the heavy dew. Wet battle dress weighs a ton and slows you down. There is one other very tragic thing about fighting through the cornfields and that is.Should you get wounded and fall.Without a marker where you are then sadly when the corn catches fire from the barrage the wounded were burnt to death. The answer to that was to stick a rifle into the ground to mark the man..... While under fire and amid the confusion and "Fog of war" the wounded were not always seen to fall. Sapper
More than a few accounts of wounded also being ground up by their own advancing armor as well, as they lay unseen in the corn or other vegetation.
Sapper Again the small [the Dew]things that we would never think of as being part of the actual battle. I do remember through this was a major pain while rounding up the dairy cattle in the long spring pasture being soaked through, pants sticking to your legs, rubbing your legs raw. I can imagine the mud and the dust [we had lots of that even the smell] but on a clear bright day these factors sure change the images. Matt
The battle dress soaked up water.... You described it very well the raw legs Etc. But most of all the added weightof the uniform.
Sapper What kind of weight would you have been packing into battle and what was the weight of the average infantryman. There all kinds of preconceived ideas about this and seems that the writers of History dont really deal with this sort of detail. I see you mentioned earlier you were packing a Bren and I'm sure all kinds of other stuff. probably a little different than the infantry but probably around the same over all load. matt
GPO's Son: The Osprey series on WWII infantry tactics goes into the question of infantry combat loads. Obviously it would vary according to the mission, but from what I read 60 lbs was a common average. Often it was more than that; one website I saw about the US 45th Division said that in the Italian winter the American infantryman might have a load of 82 lbs. (Try humping THAT up a steep slope in the mud and rain!) Today, the USMC recommends a load of 50 lbs, but in Afghanistan and Iraq troops have often had to carry loads of 90 lbs or even more.
I work with the tools on every day, a carton of hardwood flooring weighs about 60 lbs but I get to put it down after a short trip up the stairs. Pretty sure that wasn't the case for the PBI. I'm 185 lbs and have had a good nights rest and am not suffering from dysentery or just plain exhaustion.
What a difficult question to answer..About what would the average man carry. Impossible really. For each has his own tasks with gear to carry, some went into battle carrying as little as possible...Seriously! We nearly always wore denims. They were light and easy to "Run" in. The thing is that they carried enough for what they would need. Not food or any surplus.... For their base was not far behind. We did not always wear a steel helmet you may ask WHY? well let me tell you ...Try running at speed across an open space ..before you arrive the other side your steel helmet would be down over your eyes trying to break your nose.... So we did not always use helmets But always when it rained..keeps the rain from running down your back Sometimes we carried rifles others Stens. But usually I carried the Bren.and as light as possible
GPO's Son: The Osprey series on WWII infantry tactics goes into the question of infantry combat loads. Obviously it would vary according to the mission, but from what I read 60 lbs was a common average. Often it was more than that; one website I saw about the US 45th Division said that in the Italian winter the American infantryman might have a load of 82 lbs. (Try humping THAT up a steep slope in the mud and rain!) Today, the USMC recommends a load of 50 lbs, but in Afghanistan and Iraq troops have often had to carry loads of 90 lbs or even more. 60 lbs. would be heavy enough, especially at the end of a long day over the terrain these men would have to walk. I'm sure that many were not of large stature so that 60lb.s could well represent 40-45% of their body weight. From dozens of canoe trips I know that a 60-80 lb. pack makes walking much more difficult and drains your stamina. I'm 6' 2" and 200 lbs. and we weren't carrying them all day long. Yet another example of how amazing these guys were and what they endured.
As Sapper says, the infantrymen would try to cut this down as much as possible depending on the mission. In an attack, the basics would be weapon, unit of fire (ammo & grenades), helmet, canteen, emergency rations. Even that weighs more than you might think, a Bren being over 20 lbs, and you might have to carry wire cutters, demolitions, bazooka rockets, and God knows what in addition. If all went well (and QUICKLY) other stuff could be brought up by carrying parties, sometimes jeeps or Bren carriers, mules in Italy or Burma. But that wasn't always possible and I have seen plenty of pictures of infantry attacking with their small packs on. To illustrate, take a look at the weights cited here: Combat Load of the Average Infantry Soldier Bad as it was for the riflemen, God help the machine gunners and mortarmen who had to keep up with them.
I have been in action with just what I stood up in, with my Bren and a mag or two..... A little while ago some one brought in a deactivated WW2 rifle, just like my old bundook . It was too heavy for me to carry. yet I carried the Brain and never noticed its weight.
Sapper as an engineer were you expected to fight as infantry or were you were your weapons more for self defense purposes. I know the artillery all had weapons about only on the rarest of occassions did they ever use them. Otterloo for the 17th field regiment CRA for example.
I know the artillery all had weapons Maybe in the RCA. Not in the RA they did'nt, Gunners were not issued with small arms NWE. Only officers, Carrier patrols as Foo's etc. RA Regts had very very few small arms. Best Rob
Let me tell you this ... Our Colonel had a mantra: that NO ONE ever took lightly. That was: You are fighting soldiers first and sappers after...God help the man that forgot it! Seriously! That was Colonel of the RE Tiger Urquhart... To be followed later by the CRE Colonel Evil...... Yes we had all the weapons, Stens, Brens, Flame throwers, PIATS, and a huge supply of every kind of explosives. What is more, we used to go out on Fighting patrols at times. I spent some time of fighting patrols on the flat lands around the river Maas deserted villages. Mine laying in front of the leading troops, If we could not get an infantry cover...we would supply our own shield of protective troops. Sometimes we would send out Sapper patrols to gain engineering information for upcoming assaults. By taking a prisoner... We sent out a patrol and got separated at the Geirston castle...Spelling? never ever found the missing sapper. At the hand to hand fighting at the Chateau de la londe we lost Sappers and never found them.
Maybe in the RCA Rob I know you have seen it but there is pretty good accounting of gunner's and their small arms at Otterloo in April 16/17th 1945 My Dad's troop [e 76th battery] ended up defending their 25 lbser's in hand to hand combat [he was struck from strength at Ceprano and didnt not return]. His Sgt Gun Gordie Bannerman has a his version at www.gordiebannerman.com or the Regimental history below http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/canadian/40117-17th-canadian-field-regiment-rca-history.html sapper you lot had to be pretty resilent then didnt you? Jacks of all trades, first in, Ill advised to make any mistakes, and had to cover your own back sides, does that about cover it. Dad always did speak highly of the engineers.
Maybe in the RCA. Not in the RA they did'nt, Gunners were not issued with small arms NWE. Only officers, Carrier patrols as Foo's etc. RA Regts had very very few small arms. Best Rob Rob, I'm guessing the RCA lads weren't issued small arms either. Must have been weapons they found "lying around". Most Canucks are inveterate scroungers.