Desperately searching for information on my grandfather WWII

Thanks, TD! All the basic details I know about Ethel etc. are correct - those are the names of her children and I know they lived in Wombwell, and that she was a salvation army officer. I didn't know about the torpedo, but I do know he only had one functioning lung, and if he got pneumonia it would have likely been a death sentence. My dad once said something about malaria at the time of his death as well, but it could have been a combined issue. Do you think there would be medical records kept anywhere from this time/location?

 

I should note that I contacted the Salvation Army and they said that they no longer held my grandmother's records because she left the Salvation Army in order to marry my grandfather. She went back after his death, I believe, but I guess they automatically tossed anything once you left. Which is a real shame, because apparently she had some really interesting experiences and wrote them interesting reports.

 

Searching further, in fact trying to find info on 'Mrs M Crisp' (Ians mother according to the WW1 service records) I came across another potential family member:

All India, Select Deaths and Burials, 1719-1948 results for Crisp:
Rosine Miller Crisp dd mm 1933

TD

 

Perhaps you need to contact the company that presumably still exists -

HOARE MILLER
&
COMPANY LIMITED


84th
Report & Accounts
2003-2004
www.reportjunction.com/.../Hoare-Miller-Co-Limited-2004-46033.htm


If you Google Hoare Miller Co Ltd then there are several hits - maybe someone has some history regarding your relation??

TD

 

The company was founded 2 January 1920 and is still active, although it now seems involved with housing developments
https://www.zaubacorp.com/company/HOARE-MILLER-AND-CO-LTD/U51909WB1920PLC003570
With "Miller" seemingly a founders name, and the use of it as either a maternal name or as a double-barrelled surname and him being employed there must indicate some family link. There are email links provided so perhaps a polite enquiry may elicit a helpful response?

This might be the MD, but he's in his mid 80's if it's him, or a namesake..
http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/g-d-agarwal-indefinite-hunger-strike-again

There may also be some newspaper references to survivors from a ship being brought ashore, but it may be he hung on for some while before his lung gave out.....
or the torpedoing may be a misunderstanding and he was taken ill while involved with the fighting against the Japanese.

It does all seem to be coming together, good work!

... but you also need to keep an eye on progress on the Rootschat thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=713543.18
otherwise people on both forums will be going over ground already covered by the other.

 

Thanks TD and KevinBattle!

Yes, I will keep an eye on both and try to make sure I update each thread. I started that one just before bed and the time zone difference means that I've only recently had the chance to look at it. I seem to sleep when much of this research is being done! Lazy Australian....

 

TD I think this may well be Ian's mother - she lived in Poona and was baptised there, so it fits with the marriage record found earlier... Very interesting!

 

TD - new information. I've found out that Ethel and Ian were only married for a few years before she left India (and he died). So, around 1940, I believe, give or take a year or so. So he was probably married before her, and that would explain Doris...

 

Have emailed the company - here's hoping something interesting comes from it. Will post immediately if I get a response.
Also, I'm a bit confused about the second link - the MD. Could you explain? Sorry if it's incredibly obvious. I've so much information floating around in my mind at the moment!

 

It's only incredibly obvious if you know the answer, so apologies for not making it clearer - he is listed as the Managing Director, he may be the 80+ year old campaigner, or a namesake. I just pull loose threads to see if anything relevant appears! Sometimes it's useful to know a little of the background of any person you approach out of the blue.

You know the family were involved in Indian trade, seems to go way back before 1920, so that may be when the Company became "Limited";
You know they were involved with the Salvation Army
You know he was educated at Edinburgh University
Hoare, Miller contributed to the Anglo Indian Evangelist cause
Anything else relevant we/Rootschat know that might take us forward?

Perhaps a search or any survivors from a ship sinking being brought ashore in say the month before he died might give a clue, or perhaps he and his wife may have been on different vessels on the way back to UK and his was sunk?????

Now we know you're in Oz, we can work while you're snoozing and vice versa!

 

Looking a bit deeper I found this written about the port in 1940 -

My father worked for the Calcutta Steam Navigation Company, managed by Hoare, Miller & Company whose office was at 5 Fairlie Place, across the river from Howrah Station. They operated a fleet of launches which towed several barges, known as lighters, which had no power of their own and were therefore totally dependent upon their towing launches for speed and direction. Most of the sea-going vessels entering the Port of Calcutta had their cargo off loaded in mid-stream into these lighters for delivery to the many factories that were on both sides of the Hooghly river. These ranged from petroleum at Budge Budge, 16 miles downstream from the City to jute mills, rubber factories, brick –kilns, paint & varnish makers, engineering companies etc. During the period we are talking about, of course, there was a vast amount of strategic material also coming in by river. One of the perks we were able to enjoy was having the use of a company launch at an occasional week-end to take trips up and down the river.

link to article - http://gypsyscholar.com/30412dailytranst.html


Also looking at Ian Crisps CWGC details that showed:

Regiment/Service:Royal Engineers attd. 285 Docks Operating Coy. Indian Engineers

It is possible to see the link there, as I guess Calcutta would have been a major (and safe port from its geographical position) for loading and especially unloading stores, equipment, fuel etc to supply the troops on the eastern side of India.

TD

 

Well, he's buried in Chittagong which is a river/port but many miles from Kolkata.
Pam says he died of a lung problem, so presumably there'd be military hospitals there for a major port?
There doesn't seem to be much about the 285 Docks Operating Coy that I can find, maybe a War Diary might throw more light?

 

Hey KevinBattle, nothing new from RootsChat, and the Edinburgh university lead ran cold. They've got no records at all on him. There was another university in Edinburgh at the time, though, so I will try them as well. No word from Hoares Miller and Co. as of yet. I'll look into the Managing Director idea as soon as I can (probably Thursday/Friday), and hopefully that turns up something. My grandfather wasn't involved in the Salvation Army really - that was why Ethel was kicked out. She married outside the church, which was frowned upon. I don't think she ever gave up on the church fully, though. I'm sure she would have continued support as far as possible, so continued involvement on some level is likely.

Perhaps if I can find the reason for the trip home - is it possible at this time that there was an evacuation? I can't understand any other reason why she would leave with such young children, and without her husband.

The only newish bits of information I have that might lead to something are:

- My grandfather (Ian Andrew) had a lung issue (pre-existing) - a collapsed lung perhaps, or something pretty substantial, so there may be army medical records of his somewhere? What do you think?

- There are apparently medals somewhere, but my dad doesn't know where. There was a foster brother (Ethel fostered a child when my dad was in Australia), but he's had no contact, or maybe the boy died at some point, they're pretty quiet on it and I'll have to push some more buttons to get the information I think. But my dad thinks that he might have been given the uniform and medals. No knowledge of what the medals were for.

- Ethel had a brother, but my aunt in England has been trying to trace back information included from that side of the family, and they know next to nothing apparently. Probably a dead end to ask for more details, but I will try. I'm waiting for a response from family - they're notoriously slow to write.

Not much...

We know that he might have been married before, though. Maybe if I can trace the children of his first wife, they might have information about him that my family doesn't. :-/

 

Hi elissa

From the CWGC details it is I believe Ethel who was at Edinburgh University "Additional Information: Husband of Ethel Crispe, of Wombwell, Yorkshire. B.A., B.Sc.(Edin.)."

I also think that Doris Murice McLeod was Ian's first wife ie
That entry, from Ancestry, states:
Name: Ian Miller Crisp
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Age: 27
Birth Date: 1896
Marriage Date: 3 Jul 1923
Marriage Place: Calcutta, Bengal, India
Father: John Fred Crisp
Spouse: Doris Murice Mcleod

Doris presumably died in the late 1920's or early 1930's - for example there is this death albeit in London (she may have returned to the UK with some form of illness):

Name: Doris M P Crisp
Birth Date: abt 1906
Date of Registration: Mar 1933
Age at Death: 27
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 592

He then married Ethel sometime in 1939 - 1940 ish. It is quite possible that having lived there for a while she may have needed to return home to see her parents, so that they could see their grandchildren, or perhaps something had gone wrong with her marriage, who knows.

I will search further for Abletts, do you know where they were born? I assume Barnsley way as that was the addres she was returning to in 1944.

TD

 

Abletts born in Barnsley 1900 - 1920

Herbert - 1900
Ellis - 1903
Ethel - 1905
Phyllis - 1914

I will check out the census's later

TD

 

From the 1911 census:

Name: Ethel Ablett
Age in 1911: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1905
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Wombwell, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Wombwell
County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
Country: England
Street address: Quarry House Wombwell Main Nr Barnsley Yorks
Registration district: Barnsley
Registration District Number: 507
Sub-registration district: Darfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Piece: 27613
Household Members:
Name Age
John Ablett 50
Jane Ablett 46
Frederick Ablett 23
Albert Ablett 17
Mildred Ablett 15
Herbert Ablett 10
Ellis Ablett 8
Ethel Ablett 6


Birth details:

Name: Ethel Ablett
Registration Year: 1905
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Barnsley
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 300

Any other info on her is contained within posts on this thread.

TD

 

Well found, TD!
Wombwell Main was a colliery (when we still used coal) so there may be some records here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F165403
or http://www.aditnow.co.uk/mines/Wombwell-Main-Coal-Mine/
Whilst I don't wish to quibble, would Ethel have put HER educational details on for the Additional Information regarding her late husband?
If she was a BA AND a BSc, then it would indicate a fairly wealthy family, high up in the structure of the colliery....?

 

Hi Kevin,

Quibble away - the logic behind that thought was that Elissa found nothing at Edinburgh for Ian so perhaps she was a prodigy and received a scholarship or something similar. Without delving deeper into her parents, her father could have been an engineer, as opposed to a coal face worker - it was just another possible avenue that could be explored.

"Additional Information: Husband of Ethel Crispe, of Wombwell, Yorkshire. B.A., B.Sc.(Edin.)."

also why would they show his qualifications in that particular way after her name and where she lives?? - its just the way my mind works :ewink: :P

TD

 

Just done a quick check on the 1911 census and John Ablett, Ethels father is noted as a Gamekeeper under occupation. The 2 eldest sons are noted as working in the Colliery.
Another point of interest perhaps is that John, Jane, Frederick, Albert and Mildred were all born in Theberton, Suffolk.

TD

 

Hey guys, so I sent a praise-filled reply to this days ago and apparently it didn't stick, so... sorry about that. To summarise: Thanks so much for looking into all this - I found out from family that Ethel's dad was in fact a gamekeeper, so that's definitely her father. This has all been so incredible and I'm very appreciative of all the work you've put into it. I'm going to pay for some of these documents and look into some of the extra avenues discussed on this thread and I hope to find more information as things trickle back.

Would you like me to keep this open and update it whenever I find more information, or mark it as completed? I still don't quite know the etiquette here

Thanks again, you've come up with so much incredible stuff! I already know a lot more than I thought I could. I look forward to putting together more pieces of the puzzle!!

Elissa M