Desperate to find out about my Grandfather

To be honest i don't know what the general policy was for the burying of casualties. I assume a lot depended on the circumstances.

The other gunner originally buried at the same location as your Grandfather was Frederick George William Lovell. He was from a different Anti-Tank Regt and was killed a week earlier than Stanley Turner. It could be that Frederick Lovell had already been buried at that location, and that your Grandfather was killed in the nearby area and it was expedient to bury him alongside the previous casualty. Or that once the area was clear and relatively safe from enemy action they were both buried at the same time by rear echelon troops cleaning up the area afterwards.

The only other casualty i can find from your Grandfather's unit who died the same day is Victor Harold James Cartwright. He was buried in a battlefield cemetery quite a distance away, towards the North-West of Caen. Assuming that he wasn't moved to this cemetery from elsewhere (as there's no concentration report on the CWGC site), and looking at the dates of death of others buried in the cemetery you could speculate that he was possibly wounded in one of prior engagements and succumbed to his wounds a number of days later.

Again, these are just possiblilities/speculation and I don't think there's any way to tell exactly what happened to these casualties without turning up further documented evidence.

 

Thank you for your help.
I have also just found some more men from my Grandfather's unit buried in the same cemetary as Victor Cartwright.
GILBERT, TERENCE RUSSELL. He died on 12th July but there aren't any concentration papers to view and also HINKS, FRANK GRIFFITHS, who died on 2nd July.
Would a lack of concentration reports mean that the men weren't moved anywhere else after the initial burial?

I have completed the forms for his war papers as previously suggested so, hopefully that will shed some more light on him.

 

I have also just seen from my Grandfather's concentration papers that, a Serjeant Harry Ashton, from my Grandfather's unit is in the same cemetary as him but died a week earlier.

 

i'm not sure how 'complete' the CWGC website is with regards to concentration reports. There seems to be a lot of concentration reports for casualties from the NWEurope campaign, but i do know that there isn't any for some casualties in the Italian campaign that should probably have them.

For instance, if you look at the last post on this previous thread, with regard to Capt Colin Stockdale, he was originally buried near the spot he fell overlooking the Gargiliano River, but finally came to rest in the Cassino War Cemetery, and as of yet there isn't a concentration report on the CWGC site for him. Same goes for the casualty in the OP in that thread.

It could be that all the NWEurope concentration reports have already been uploaded to the site, and those for casualties from other campaigns are being added on an ongoing basis, but i can't confirm this.

 

Good Morning

I have rceived my Grandfather's papers back from the Army and found out that he joined the 6th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers in 1938 at the age of 23.
He was then moved to 9th Battalion The Manchester Regiment in 1939 and then posted to 2/9th 1940.
This was then converted to 88th Anti Tank RA in 1941.

There is no more information until his death was recorded in 1944.

Would anyone know why there is a 3 year gap in his records?

He was recorded in the 86th (5th Battalion) Anti Tank at the date of his death but no mention of him being changed from 88th to 86th or how he went from rank of Private to Gunner.

Is there any way of filling in the missing 3years of his service?

Thanks

 

I too have a 3 year 'gap' in my fathers record, I phoned Glasgow and asked them to confirm the information, they may have missed something, in my case they had not. Why its blank I (and they I believe) have no idea, you may have to put it down to having slipped through the net I guess.

TD

 

Thanks

I may try Glasgow but I suppose I'll have to keep researching the different regiments he was posted to and see if I can work out movements from that!

It's all so confusing!

 

That would happen as he transferred from Infantry (Pte) to Artillery (Gnr).

It is always worth a call to Glasgow to ask, just in case they have missed something. They were very good when I called, they checked and emailed me back in a couple of days.

All you can do now is start with what you know and obtain the War Diaries for the various units he was with for the times he was probably with them, thats about as close as you can get - unless he suddenly became an officer

 

He died as a Gunner.
Would the diaries show where he moved to etc?

I've tried to upload the document that the Army sent to me

 

The diaries will show what was recorded for that unit - in varying degrees of detail as I suspect it depended on who was writing them up at the time.
From my point of view your problem is do you need the diaries for 88 or 86th Anti Tank. The diary for the 86th AT should provide information as to where they were and what they were doing at the time of his death, you might even be able to work out more precise details if the diary was detailed enough.

TD

 

I can only confirm from what war diaries are available the 2/9 Manc Regt was converted to 88 AT Regt as the Manchesters diaries end in Oct 1941 and 88 AT diaries start in Dec 1941. His rank would have changed from Pte to Gnr as he was re rolled from a infantry unit to a artillery unit.

I'm not sure about the 88 to 86 AT regiments though-I would expect to see a date of transfer.

 

Not sure if anyone has bothered to checked CWGC yet but the Concentration Report states he was attached. So I would best guess at this stage he was 88 AT Regt until 1944 and was a battlefield replacement for 86 AT Regt.

Casualty Details

 

Hi,

I've had a look at the extract from his statement of services form that you've posted above. It is part of his 4 page attestation papers multiset (usually 2 pages of foolscap with writing on both sides of each page)

Did Glasgow send you his B103 Casualty form(s)? There may be more than one page. That is usually the most helpful army form from which to track a soldiers movements.

It would be really helpful to members if you posted all the forms that you've received from MOD Glasgow as we can assist you best with sight of original documents. Once we know what you've received from MOD we can identify possible ommisions and interpret the contents. There have been many occasions when forum members have identified missing forms and a subsequent phone call to MOD has lead to the rediscovery of the missing forms. It is not unusual for a busy MOD clerk to fail to enclose all the papers from a service file.

Steve Y

 

Hi
I had already looked at the CWGC and downloaded the documents to put with the rest of my things.
At the risk of sounding stupid (please forgive me) what is a 'battlefield replacement' ?

Thanks
Jo

 

Hi Steve

Thank you for your reply.
I will get all the papers posted up here. I can't see any mention of the move from 88th to 86th but being a complete novice myself, I may be missing something very obvious !

Thanks again!

 

Hi Jo,

We'll all look forward to seeing the originals documents

Just to clarify Drew's "battlefield replacement" phrase. When a new unit is formed it is made up of "original" members. Any change of personnel "out of battle" and or in peacetime would be considered "replacements".

Once a unit goes into action there are inevitably casualties and a "battlefield replacement" would be a soldier posted into the unit whilst it was in action or immediately after it came out of action.

The "battlefield replacement" would usually come from a "reinforcement pool" - may be a soldier who has previously served in another unit (often returning to "action" from illness or on recovery from a previous wound) or a newly trained soldier or in more rare circumstances he might be a soldier from a newly disbanded unit - perhaps a survivor from a unit that suffered major casualties itself. Your grandfathers B103 should clarify his movements before his death.

Steve Y

 

Hopefully these pictures are good enough ?

 

2nd batch

 

last one.

Nothing I have been sent mentions B103 - is this the most important one?

 

Hi Jo,

As you say no mention of any B103's so I would get back in touch with MOD Glasgow -initially by phone on the contact number provided on the covering letter that you will have received with the papers sent by MOD.

Don't expect an instant response over the phone as MOD will have to locate the file but if you don't get satisfaction by a return phone call after a week or so I would follow it up with a letter and or e mail. Note details of the person who answers the phone etc.

As I said there have been cases where the missing forms have been located and provided by MOD after a follow up phone call.

On the other hand it may be the case that what you have been provided by MOD is all that they have on his service file - either the missing papers have been "lost" over the past 70+ years or simply culled from the file.

If that is the reply I would ask MOD for contact details of the department that will have dealt with your grandmothers widows pension - that Department may still hold some papers in their archives.

Fingers crossed the missing papers turn up in Glasgow.

Good Luck.

Steve Y