DEMS gunner losses

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Steve49, Jul 5, 2021.

  1. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Gents,

    Thursday 7th November 1940

    TURNBULL, Frank, Private, 6th Border Regt, 3599434, killed
    METCALF, William H, 6th Border Regt, 3598877, killed- Not listed by CWGC as being a DEMS gunner, but as he is buried at Oostduinkerke it would indicate he was lost at sea and later washed ashore.

    Possibly lost with Herland which was mined in the Thames Estuary and is listed as having two gunners missing.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Casualty Details | CWGC
    PRIVATE
    FRANK TURNBULL
    Service Number: 3599434
    Regiment & Unit/Ship Border Regiment D.E.M.S. Personnel. 6th Bn.
    Date of Death Died 07 November 1940
    Age 30 years old
    Buried or commemorated at
    PLYMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL
    Panel 44, Column 2.
    United Kingdom
    Country of Service
    United Kingdom
    Additional Info
    Son of Andrew Turnbull, and of Mary Agnes Turnbull, of Dalry, Ayrshire.


    TD

    Royal Navy casualties, killed and died, November 1940
    DEMS, 6th Border Regt
    TURNBULL, Frank, Private, Army, 3599434, killed



    https://wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?72607
    captain: Petersen, Charles complement: 3 crew: 32

    Total onboard = ??


    FAA Attack on Taranto, November 1940
    British steamer HERLAND (2645grt) was sunk on a mine two cables 146° from Nore Light Vessel.
    Sixteen crew and two naval gunners were lost with the British steamer.

    Total onboard = ??
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
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  3. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks for that.

    Five Officers and 11 OR of the crew were killed, it's just the gunners whose identities are unclear. There are no naval gunners lost on this date, so the 'naval gunners' must have been Army. As you've shown, naval-history and CWGC only have the one DEMS gunner (Pte Turnbull) recorded for the day. If he was lost with Herland, considering that they are of the same unit, it would seem likely that Pte Metcalf (even though he's not listed as DEMS) was also killed in the sinking and his body was later carried to the Belgian coast.

    Regards

    Steve
     
  4. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    I can confirm both Turnbull and Metcalf were the gunners lost on HERLAND.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  5. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks again.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  6. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Gents,

    Tuesday, 12th November 1940
    MORGAN, John H, Private, King's Own Royal Regt, 3713783, killed [PlyM]

    No losses listed on 12th November, but the sinking of the Automedon resulted in the loss of one unidentified gunner, so possibly Pte Morgan.

    Wednesday, 13th November 1940
    MACKINNON, Donald, Lance Corporal, Seaforth Highlanders, 2816788, killed [PlyM]

    The sinking of the Cape St Andrew resulted in the loss of two gunners. I have identified Mne Lovegrove as being one, it is possible L/Cpl Mackinnon was the second.

    Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  7. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    So many gunners so many ships - unfortunately, in many cases, the date of death is known and it is speculation as to whether the gunner was on a particular ship. So I have tried to eliminate the guesswork - my records are not complete yet but a work in progress.

    From my records.

    MACKINNON, Donald, Private, Army, 2816788, age 29, Seaforth Highlanders, killed 13 November 1940, (ANVERS - Belgian).
    Need to do a double check on JH Morgan for you.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  8. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Indeed many gaps regarding merchant ship losses. I guess the individual nature of merchant shipping companies together with the often individual nature of the deployment of DEMS gunners didn't lead to tidy record keeping, so alas I feel some identified lost gunners will remain so.

    Thanks for the Mackinnon info. Anvers had been a little confusing. Lloyds said '37 crew, 1 killed.', but a Belgian merchant navy website said all crew survived. I guess Lloyds failed to note that the one loss was a gunner. Just again looking at Lloyds losses I see I'd jumped the gun regarding Cape St Andrew, as only one gunner is actually being noted as being lost.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  9. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hi Steve,
    MacKinnon was the only gunner lost aboard ANVERS but the sources you have quoted appear to be incorrect with regard to the losses - I have 20 crew including the gunner as being lost - armed forces personnel signed on the ship's articles so were classed as crew - 14 seamen plus 1 gunner survived.

    *I am not confident on what I have with Pte J H Morgan at the moment so more research on him needed.*
    Regards
    Hugh
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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  10. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks for that. I wonder why Lloyds was so far off regarding those lost with the sinking of Anvers?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  11. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Gents,

    Friday, 6th December 1940

    CARSON, William, Private, Highland Light Infantry, 2976754, killed [PlyM]

    I can't see any associated hostile incident involving the loss of a DEMS gunner on this date. Any ideas?

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Royal Navy casualties, killed and died, December 1940
    Friday, 6 December 1940
    DEMS, Highland Light Infantry
    CARSON, William, Private, Army, 2976754, killed


    TD

    UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945
    Name: William Carson
    Given Initials: W
    Rank: Private
    Death Date: 6 Dec 1940
    Number: 2976754
    Birth Place: Renfrewshire
    Residence: Glasgow
    Regiment at Enlistment: Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regiment)
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: At sea
    Regiment at Death: Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regiment)
    Branch at Death: Infantry

    U-boat Happy Time, December 1940
    British steamer SUPREMITY (554grt) was sunk on a mine west, southwest, three cables from EastOaze Light Vessel, Thames Estuary.
    One crewman was lost on the British steamer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2021
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  13. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    The crewman lost in the sinking was Chief Engineer Officer Leonard H. Dawkins. He is remembered on the Tower Hill Memorial.

    Regards

    Steve
     
  14. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    I wouldn't just restrict your search to hostile incidents as DEMS gunners were also lost at sea to natural weather related incidents etc. I concur that the only casualty on SUPREMITY on the face of it was Chief Engineer Leonard H. Dawkins but I have learnt to expect the unexpected with regard to DEMS. Sometimes the cross service reporting was not as good as it should have been and as a result we are still trying to find out the circumstances some 80 years on. Some of the smaller ships in the early part of the war would have just one or maybe two machine gunners from the army as the only DEMS involvement. Also foreign ships with DEMS can make the tracing of those gunners difficult especially the evidence.

    Gunner William Carson does not appear unfortunately on my records or sources so I will keep an eye out for information on him. Incidentally, another soldier, Hamilton Brown Stronach was lost on the same day from the same regiment but is commemorated on the Brookwood Memorial.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Would I be right in thinking this was the only Merchant Navy crewman lost on this ship/incident

    I am sure we have seen before that a DEMS gunner loss is not always included as 'crew lost'

    TD
     
  16. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Indeed the deployment of DEMS personnel is often hard to place and yes I agree many a serviceman was lost from a non-combat related cause, thus my observation that I couldn't see a obvious combat event to relate to his loss.

    With a second missing member of his regiment, I wonder if perhaps they could both have been lost with the sinking of the Norwegian ship Nyland, which was lost with all hands (20 crew recorded, including three Canadian merchant navy personnel) after running aground and breaking up. Obviously in the absence of any supporting evidence, this theory is no more than idle speculation, but I would assume that a ship like Nyland in UK coastal waters would have embarked DEMS gunners.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  17. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi TD,

    Indeed you are correct that the DEMS gunners can be missed from crew list, and though I'm pretty confident that Supremity was carrying 10 persons at the time of its loss, of whom just one was lost, in the absence of confirmation where Gunner Carson was lost, I can not rule out any possibility.

    Regards

    Steve
     
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  18. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Gents,

    Sunday 2nd February 1941

    DOWNS, Cyril, Private, Army, 6349717 (Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regt), killed [PlyM]

    S.S. The Sultan is noted as being lost with one crew and one gunner on this date, which may be Pte Downs.
     
  19. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Steve,
    I have him on my list as lost along with the Bosun John Murphy - ss THE SULTAN.
    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  20. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Hugh,

    Thanks for that.

    Yes I have Bosun Murphy as the lost crew member.

    Regards,

    Steve
     

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