DEMS gunner losses

Hi Steve,
Gunner Thomas Francis Parkins died in Bermuda Military Hospital on 18 September 1941 cause of death was heart failure.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,

So regarding Tottenham, success from both BT373/326 and BT381/1697. As well as 27 crew, the documents list three 'Deck Hand (DEMS Ratings), namely.

Arthur V. QUINN
John H. HILL
Arthur F. STONEBANK

Additionally Deck Hand T.W. SCOTT is listed as joining on the same day as Quinn, but he is not listed as being a DEMS Rating, so he may have been a Merchant Navy crewman.

Hill and Stonebank are not listed on the Maritime Regiment missing list, so I wonder if they were RN gunners.

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

Yes - I have Able Seaman J.H. Hill C/J.103683.
Acting Able Seaman A.F. Stonebanks C/JX238612.

I cannot find this man as a merchant seaman in my PoW lists.

I have searched my lists of prisoners for TOTTENHAM and I can only come up with 25 MN seamen (listed below) the two RN gunners and A.V. Quinn the Maritime RA gunner.

A.B. Collins R.A.
Slr. Cottis C.R.
App. Easton R.J.
A/Cook. Elliott R.
A.B. Freemont F.W.
Ch. Stwd. Gray T.L.
4th Eng. Hindmarsh R.A.V.
3rd Eng. Holmes J.A.
Dk Boy. Jackson G.H.
Slr. King F.J.
O.S. Lewsley L.F.W.
3rd R.O. Ludbrook P.
A.B. Mockett F.H.
Ch. Eng. Nolan E.
F+T. O’Brien J.P.
F+T. Perry W.C.
2nd R.O. Pryer J.R.
2nd Eng. Read H.J.
C.Boy. Robinson E.R.
Asst. Stwd. Stephenson F.
Dkymn + Gsr. Thompson G.D.
Cook. Thwaites S.
App. Watson W.C.
Master. Woodcock A.E.
Ch. Off. Young P.R.

Thanks for reporting back with your checks at Kew it is much appreciated.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh

1675726, L/Sgt Frederick Charles Hoy, of 4 Maritime Regiment, Royal Artillery was wounded in Greece on 11-Dec-44.

Do you have any idea which ship he would have been serving on at the time of him being wounded? If he was indeed DEMS.

There is no rush with this.

Thanks in advance

Gus

 

Hi Gus,
I don't have him listed in any of my records or sources. There appear to be no suitable ships lost or damaged on that day that I can see.
He joined 4 Maritime Regt on 20.10.1941 so I would say he was involved in the DEMS organisation but we don't know at this stage what he was doing, Dec 1944. Normally, if he was wounded aboard ship it would be noted that he was wounded "at sea" but he is listed as wounded "Greece" 11.12.1944. He appears to have survived the war. His service record may help but only if you can obtain his 'maritime card' which would list the ships he served aboard.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,

Unfortunately I didn't make a copy of the crew list, but from BT373/326 I counted 10 Officers, 17 OR crew (including SCOTT) and 3 DEMS gunners.

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Hugh,

No sign of the above six gunners in either BT373/80 or BT381/1333, but the Devon crew agreements/POW lists do have the following Deck Hands.

Harry W. BROWN
Gerald LAZZARI
Frederick G. SHARP

The above three are noted as being DEMS Ratings in BT373/80.

Additionally BT381/1333 lists

Marius G. WALTHER

He is noted with the above three as a British Deck Hand (but not DEMS). With the majority (113) of the ratings being Indian seafarers, plus 5 British, it is possible he was also a gunner.

None of the above are listed as missing on the Maritime Regiment document, so they may have been RN gunners.

Though unfortunately the mystery isn't complete. I have seen the ship listed as having 144 missing, but the crew list only records 22 Officers and 118 Ratings. So there remains the possibility that 4 Army gunners were taken prisoner, but not recorded on the crew agreement. The search continues...!

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

Acting Able Seaman. H.W. Brown C/JX199990
Acting Able Seaman. G.C. Lazzari C/JX254263
Acting Able Seaman. F.G Sharpe C/JX226839

Maurise George Walther, catering staff ss DEVON. Probably one of the merchant seamen gunners who would assist the D.E.M.S. The MN gunners usually have their gunnery certificate number listed in one of the CA columns.

The search continues - yes, will check my sources again.
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,

Unfortunately there were no further details from BT381/1132. It records the three naval gunners (BURT, HOPKINS and WOODS) and the Trinity House Pilot, but had no mention of Army gunners.

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Hugh,

BT381/1216 confirms the presence of Army gunners FROST and T.H. LOW [sic] onboard Monberg.

Regards,

Steve

 

BT381/1408 lists 12 Officers and 40 OR crew, plus 2 'Deck Hands' (the RN gunners?) (James WEBB and John T. WALTERS), but unfortunately there is no mention of any Army gunners. It notes that 'Sailor Hamlin' drowned after the sinking.

Regards,

Steve

 

BT381/1499 confirms that there were 'no deaths or injuries' from the sinking. It lists two gunners, AB E. BROWN and AB REYNOLDS, but has no mention of Army DEMS personnel.

Regards,

Steve

 

Unfortunately no further progress from BT381/1502. It lists 26 crew and the Trinity House pilot, but has no mention of either RN or Army gunners.

Regards,

Steve

 

No mention of any gunners in BT381/1527, but as discussed previously I think you're correct regarding the losses from this sinking, namely it being the 14 MN crew.

Regards,

Steve

 

Just to confirm, I had another look at BT381/1582 and sadly there is no mention of Pte Still or any other Army gunner.

Regards,

Steve

 

A bit disappointing Steve but thank you for taking the time to look up those sources. What's enjoyable about the forum is it gives a place for discussion and pooling of resources. It has been a few decades since those events and we are still trying to put a name to a ship. The search goes on....
Regards
Hugh

 

Hi Hugh,

I agree, it's very good forum for sharing information, with very knowledgeable contributors.

Regarding the absence of Army gunners on many of the crew agreements, it is both disappointing and odd. If not recorded a 'deck hand' or other crew position, you would have expected them to have been listed as being carried as supernumeraries, but sadly this is not the case for most of them... As you say the search goes on...

Regards,

Steve

 

Hi Steve,
It is difficult to understand why some are recorded in the CA and others not. This is the same with the Deaths at Sea Register - inconsistent. We know that all gunners were classed as part of the ship's crew under the master and had to sign the relevant Articles of Agreement - this was a legal requirement and as such the D.E.M.S. were paid a nominal sum by the ship owner and given plain clothes to wear ashore. They were almost always recorded as 'deck hands' so if I see anyone on a CA as a 'deck hand' I always check them out for military background. Supernumeraries in my experience were usually MN personnel.

Regards
Hugh

 

Sunday 5th October 1941

HILL, Geoffrey F, Bombardier, RA, 1548210 (7/4 Maritime Regt) [TEHRAN WAR CEMETERY]

Tuesday 7th October 1941

INGLEDEW, George, Gunner, RA, 4441753 (2/1 Maritime Regt) [DURBAN (STELLAWOOD) CEMETERY]

Both buried ashore, far from home, so I'm guessing non-hostile/illness related deaths. Any ideas/information?

Regards,

Steve

 

Regarding Bombardier Hill's grave being in Tehran, a long way inland, although there are no grave concentration reports on those buried there - that I have glanced at - it is likely that initial burial was not in Tehran. Once Iran (Persia) was invaded and occupied Tehran was in the Soviet sector, with very few British military presence; whereas there were many thousand based in the British sector. It is curious that there is one burial, in July 1945 in an Abadan cemetery (which had a large British community throughout WW2).

CWGC history refers to:

Link: Tehran War Cemetery | Cemetery Details | CWGC