Delisle - Commando Carbine .45 Cal. Bolt Action Si

Does anyone know where in World War 2 the DeLisle was used? Was it used for only Special OPS type missions? How did it fare in action?

Thanks

 

According to an article entitled "The Death Delivering DeLisle" by Robert T. Rome there were 130 production modles made of the DeLisle Carbine during the war, but even before they were produced, from the Summer of 1943, a number of the 17 prototypes that were hand made for evaluation were already being used in Holland and France by Commando's for sentry elimination and in Holland and France by the SOE for assasination tasks. The production weapons were used in the build up and preparation for D Day by the SOE.

They were also used in Burma behind the lines against Japanese convoys and in Indochina to terrorize the Japanese in their camps. After the Second world War they were used in Korea and Malaya during the Emergency as well as rumors that they were used in Northern Ireland and in the Falklands by you know who, and may still be in certain British Army armouries ready for when they are next needed.

If you can't improve on the best.... stick with the best.

 

View attachment 991

The weapon!

I doubt if it is still in use by the hereford hooligans, as there is probably better weapons around.

 

Are you sure Morse? I've fired the MP5SD and the L34A1, and although quiet, there's a lot more noise than just the firing pin strike. Why get rid of something that works and works well. I've heard of nothing that even gets close. Some silenced pistols are quiet, but it's the accuracy at range, officially 50-100m but has been stated as far as 400m, and the stopping power of the round (.45 is a heavey old round) that were so attractive to it's supporters.

 

Originally posted by morse1001@Aug 25 2005, 09:58 AM

One of the big problems with special forces is that they can develop their own weapons and so we dont really have access to what they hold in their armouries, that is why i doubt they still use it



I'm sorry Morse I can't agree with you. The special forces may have a large budget, and they also may get all the 'shiney kit'. But I think you'll find that almost all that shiney kit is available off the shelf if you are in the military/police/security world that is. If it's not off the shelf, then it is specially developed and because nothing's for free nowadays, it's soon available to be sold off the shelf in order to bring the price down to make it commercially viable or at the very least, recover the development costs. Modification to weapons for special cases is not uncommon, but the expense of developing a completely new weapon to replace the DeLisle isn't available in this day and age and if done it would soon be on the market for other forces, police forces and security services and as such details would be kept 'not so secret'. Why replace a hybrid silenced weapon with a converted weapon that's silenced? That's not the way they do things. Another thought is that if it was developed by an American firm it would even be sold over the counter in any state that allows class III weapons as you can buy DeLisle replicas there as well as a lot of much more modern (and inferior) silenced weapons over the counter.

Unless you didn't know, the DeLisle Carbine was developed privately by William Godfrey DeLisle a professional engineer, produced by Stirling Engineering Co. Dagenham and was patented in 1944 in the UK and shortly after in the US and the USSR. Only 130 were produced despite the original contract wit the government for 500 and in 1946 he was paid 3 shillings for each of the proposed run of 500, a total of about 75 pounds half of which he had to pay back in taxes. Funnily enough, that meant that the government had paid him for the full contract which meant that since then the government could have manufactured another 370 if they needed new ones.

Nothing's changed in the arms industry. They spend a fortune on development and if something works, there's no use producing only a handful for a singe customer. The customer won't pay the outragous price or the company doesn't cover the development costs. They sell to the whole of the available market. So if a replacement for the DeLisle Carbine has been developed, it wouldn't be the secret you think it would be.

I think it's more likely that the weapon works well and there isn't the market available to spend the money to develop an replacement, at least one that is an improvement on the silent, accurate and effective original.... that's why I think it's still in the armory ready for the next time the Hooligans need to go somewhere and be very nasty very quietly.

 

Originally posted by plant-pilot+Aug 25 2005, 05:07 PM-->(plant-pilot @ Aug 25 2005, 05:07 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-morse1001@Aug 25 2005, 09:58 AM

One of the big problems with special forces is that they can develop their own weapons and so we dont really have access to what they hold in their armouries, that is why i doubt they still use it


I'm sorry Morse I can't agree with you. The special forces may have a large budget, and they also may get all the 'shiney kit'. But I think you'll find that almost all that shiney kit is available off the shelf if you are in the military/police/security world that is. If it's not off the shelf, then it is specially developed and because nothing's for free nowadays, it's soon available to be sold off the shelf in order to bring the price down to make it commercially viable or at the very least, recover the development costs. Modification to weapons for special cases is not uncommon, but the expense of developing a completely new weapon to replace the DeLisle isn't available in this day and age and if done it would soon be on the market for other forces, police forces and security services and as such details would be kept 'not so secret'. Why replace a hybrid silenced weapon with a converted weapon that's silenced? That's not the way they do things. Another thought is that if it was developed by an American firm it would even be sold over the counter in any state that allows class III weapons as you can buy DeLisle replicas there as well as a lot of much more modern (and inferior) silenced weapons over the counter.

Unless you didn't know, the DeLisle Carbine was developed privately by William Godfrey DeLisle a professional engineer, produced by Stirling Engineering Co. Dagenham and was patented in 1944 in the UK and shortly after in the US and the USSR. Only 130 were produced despite the original contract wit the government for 500 and in 1946 he was paid 3 shillings for each of the proposed run of 500, a total of about 75 pounds half of which he had to pay back in taxes. Funnily enough, that meant that the government had paid him for the full contract which meant that since then the government could have manufactured another 370 if they needed new ones.

Nothing's changed in the arms industry. They spend a fortune on development and if something works, there's no use producing only a handful for a singe customer. The customer won't pay the outragous price or the company doesn't cover the development costs. They sell to the whole of the available market. So if a replacement for the DeLisle Carbine has been developed, it wouldn't be the secret you think it would be.

I think it's more likely that the weapon works well and there isn't the market available to spend the money to develop an replacement, at least one that is an improvement on the silent, accurate and effective original.... that's why I think it's still in the armory ready for the next time the Hooligans need to go somewhere and be very nasty very quietly.
[post=38125]Quoted post[/post]
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Many years ago, I was part of an Aircrew jungle Survival course ran by the Hereford Hooligans. Whilst waiting for the chopper to pick us up, we started talking to the instructors, it was mainly about weapons, one of them mentioned that their armouries modified weapons to suit personal needs.

 

Sorry to be a pain, but I did say that modification of weapons is common place. That is correct for either task specific requirement or user preferance. They are the guys who have to use the weapons for real and have the time and the knowledge to know what they want. Even the DeLisle Carbine was modified with different sights and folding stock.

That is a long way from getting a whole new weapon developed to replace a small number of specialist weapons. If that was done it is still my belief that we'd know about it.

I don't know when you were on your course in the Jungle but there were witneses who said that they saw the DeLisle carried by well camoflaged, unshaven men in Northern Ireland, although I don't think there have been claims that it was actually used. They were supposed to have been used in the Falklands in some of the 'quiet' raids in preparation for the amphibious invasion, so that brings us up to 1982. Has anything changed for somebody to say'get rid of them'? I don't think so.

 

Much of this info is on this sight and although much of the article is hearsay or unsubstantiated to a degree I would not doubt it's authenticity.

http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.pdf

I for one would not doubt that they would have been supplied to SOE operatives in France and Holland etc as they were supplied nearly everything else.

Of 130 that were produced, there is probably a present day inventory somewhere for 50 -60 of them waiting for the right occasion.

The Australian made Owen Gun was made into a "silenced operation for use in New Guinea etc during WW2.

They were also issued to Aust 9th Div on Tarakan Island, Borneo.(2/23rd Infantry Battalion.)

Ungainly looking to the original however very effective.

View attachment 994


View attachment 995

 

Originally posted by spidge@Aug 26 2005, 04:47 PM
The Australian made Owen Gun was made into a "silenced operation for use in New Guinea & Burma etc during WW2.


I was aware of the silenced Owen, the silenced Sten and have fired the L34A1, which is the silenced Stirling SMG. Although quiet, the Stirling does suffer from a problem that I can assume that all silenced blowback weapons suffer from.

The system is operated by holding a heavy lump of metal (the breech block) back with a powerful spring. When you squeeze the trigger a sear is dropped and the breech block flys forward, chambering a round and firing it straight away with a fixed firing pin on the face of the breech block, its weight holding the breech closed long enough for the round to be forced up the barrel and the gases in the barrel to build up, until they overcome the weight of the breech block and blow it back against the force of the spring. The breech block is either caught by the sear or, if the trigger is still operated, fly forward again to fire the next round. All this, even without the explosion of the round makes a lot of mechanical noise. It may not be distinguishable as a weapon firing, but silent on a quiet night it is not.

The DeLisle Carbine was bolt action, modified and lubricated to be as silent as possible, so fired from a closed bolt. The only audible action on squeezing the trigger was the firing pin striking the percusion cap on the base of the round deep within the bolt itself. When the weapon was cocked again the empty round fell into a padded section of the modified magazine so it didn't fall to the floor.

The 9mm round used by the Sten, Owens and Stirling is also a higher velocity than the .45 round of the DeLisle, and more difficult to baffle the gases to get them below the speed of sound. The .45 round is sub-sonic to start with and when the men from the ministry wanted the DeLisle in 9mm he fought it and insisted on .45. There were .22 versions made but there was no guarantee of the round actually stopping anyone at any distance.

By comparison, modern silenced sniper rifles are normal hunting or sniping full bore rifles with baffles added to the barrel. These rounds are either normal or modified rounds. The normal rounds have the disadvantage that even if the weapon is silent, the round isn't and as it 'cracks' past anyone near it's path the direction it was fired from can be determined. If they are modified to be sub sonic they may be nearly undetectable, but being much slower that the rounds the weapons are designed for, they are a lot less accurate.

So all that is a long winded way of saying that the DeLisle was so good because it combined a good baffle system, closed bolt action, a sub-sonic round, a clever ejected round capture system and a Thompson SMG barrel that was designed for the .45 ACP round.

Try and beat that today without spending millions!

 

Originally posted by plant-pilot@Aug 26 2005, 12:52 PM


I don't know when you were on your course in the Jungle but there were witneses who said that they saw the DeLisle carried by well camoflaged, unshaven men in Northern Ireland, although I don't think there have been claims that it was actually used.
[post=38164]Quoted post[/post]



Could well have been the Provos as well. But did the witnesses see if these gunmen were wearing Rolex Watches and using Karrimore bergans?

That used to be the standard means of identifying the SAS!

Also, armouries do not need to manufacture masses of weapons, so if they can incorporate known technology to produce specialist weapons. The Son Tay raiders, modified weapons to suit their needs using commercially available materials.

As for their use in the Falklands, there was a story going round at the time, that the SAS had used a comms device invented by John Logie Baird! Instead, it was early Sat comm stuff!!

 

Okay, your power of argument has proved me wrong. I must remember that a chat in a jungle clearing waiting for a lift counts as a cast iron case.

Sorry about that! I used to be very interested in weapons whilst in the mob and my unit in belize used to provide "services" to the SAS out there, so you got to know them as people rather than the public image. therefore they were more open!

However, Charlie beckworth in his book about the Delta force and book on the Son tay raid both talk about specialist weapons modifications

 

Originally posted by morse1001@Aug 26 2005, 10:30 PM
Sorry about that! I used to be very interested in weapons whilst in the mob and my unit in belize used to provide "services" to the SAS out there, so you got to know them as people rather than the public image. therefore they were more open!

However, Charlie beckworth in his book about the Delta force and book on the Son tay raid both talk about specialist weapons modifications
[post=38185]Quoted post[/post]


The point is, I have never denied that weapons are modified to suit task or user, even the DeLisle. I have however pointed out repeatedly that the DeLisle is a weapon that is designed specially to do what it does, something that it does very well. Any modification of an existing weapon will only do part of the job as well.

To develop an new weapon to replace it would take a lot of money and have to be done by a weapon manufacturer. That weapon would, in order to cover development costs, be available to other forces.... it's the way of the arms business. I have seen nothing of any such weapon, which doesn't disprove that one exists, does makes it unlikely as any new 'sneaky beaky' has it's picture released in the arms press quite quickly.

Don't confuse what the US 'Special Forces' get up to with the British. They aren't the same even if the books say they are 'the best'. They spend lots making weapons different because they can and because it looks good rather than because its an improvement... my opinion you understand.

So you'll understand my frustration when I put forward (what I consider) sound arguments why the DeLisle is the best at what it's designed to do and you don't get rid of the option of using it just because you can slap baffles on a more 'sexy' rifle. If it was that easy and they had developed a replacement, it would be on sale to the rest of the 'silent' fraternity. In reply I get the 'solid' argument that "it says in a book on the americans" and I was talking to "a man from Hereford, and he said we mod our weapons".

This may surprise you, but you aren't the only one to have worked and socialized with some of our more 'modest' members of the military brotherhood, and I'm not talking about years ago in a jungle clearing.

 

Originally posted by plant-pilot+Aug 26 2005, 09:01 PM-->(plant-pilot @ Aug 26 2005, 09:01 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-morse1001@Aug 26 2005, 10:30 PM
Sorry about that! I used to be very interested in weapons whilst in the mob and my unit in belize used to provide "services" to the SAS out there, so you got to know them as people rather than the public image. therefore they were more open!

However, Charlie beckworth in his book about the Delta force and book on the Son tay raid both talk about specialist weapons modifications
[post=38185]Quoted post[/post]


The point is, I have never denied that weapons are modified to suit task or user, even the DeLisle. I have however pointed out repeatedly that the DeLisle is a weapon that is designed specially to do what it does, something that it does very well. Any modification of an existing weapon will only do part of the job as well.

To develop an new weapon to replace it would take a lot of money and have to be done by a weapon manufacturer. That weapon would, in order to cover development costs, be available to other forces.... it's the way of the arms business. I have seen nothing of any such weapon, which doesn't disprove that one exists, does makes it unlikely as any new 'sneaky beaky' has it's picture released in the arms press quite quickly.

Don't confuse what the US 'Special Forces' get up to with the British. They aren't the same even if the books say they are 'the best'. They spend lots making weapons different because they can and because it looks good rather than because its an improvement... my opinion you understand.

So you'll understand my frustration when I put forward (what I consider) sound arguments why the DeLisle is the best at what it's designed to do and you don't get rid of the option of using it just because you can slap baffles on a more 'sexy' rifle. If it was that easy and they had developed a replacement, it would be on sale to the rest of the 'silent' fraternity. In reply I get the 'solid' argument that "it says in a book on the americans" and I was talking to "a man from Hereford, and he said we mod our weapons".

This may surprise you, but you aren't the only one to have worked and socialized with some of our more 'modest' members of the military brotherhood, and I'm not talking about years ago in a jungle clearing.
[post=38188]Quoted post[/post]
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We seem to be talking at cross purposes here, you are talking about something which is capable of mass production. Whereas, i am talking about a weapon which suits the purpose at hand.

 

Originally posted by morse1001+-->(morse1001)</div><div class='quotemain'>I doubt if it is still in use by the hereford hooligans, as there is probably better weapons around.
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<!--QuoteBegin-morse1001
One of the big problems with special forces is that they can develop their own weapons and so we dont really have access to what they hold in their armouries, that is why i doubt they still use it
You stated that you thought it unlikley that the British army have any DeLisles left.

a) Modifications aren't as good as designing a weapon from the ground up. You are replacing the best of its type ever developed... a replacement would have to be an improvement.

b ) Development of a new weapon is the job of weapons manufacturers today, not some craftsman in a workshop.

c) Development is a very expensive undertaking. Mass production would make the weapon affordable in the manufacturer's and customer's eyes. (Mass production may only be a few hundred)

d) If a replacement is mass produced or comercially availabe it would be known.

e) The army don't usually get rid of a good bit of kit until it's replaced by another (even if that bit of kit is worse).

Some of my arguments as to why there may just be a couple of DeLisle Carbines sat ready for use if needed. Where as your arguments amount to "the americans modify weapons in the books" and "they told me they mod their weapons", so they don't have any DeLisle Carbines...... I'm sorry, you still haven't convinced me.

 

I have no doubt that the Silenced Owen provided the service that was expected of it. It would have provided short range fire in the jungle without giving the firer's position away, ideal for ambushes and surprise attacks.

I was just trying to point out why the DeLisle was so much better at what IT was supposed to do, eliminate sentrys at a medium range and allow an assasin the chance of escape.

 

I was just trying to point out why the DeLisle was so much better at what IT was supposed to do, eliminate sentrys at a medium range and allow an assasin the chance of escape.

That is a point, since very few operations these days would require the silent eliminatation of sentries or for that matter anybody else.

 

Originally posted by plant-pilot@Aug 28 2005, 04:56 AM
I have no doubt that the Silenced Owen provided the service that was expected of it. It would have provided short range fire in the jungle without giving the firer's position away, ideal for ambushes and surprise attacks.

I was just trying to point out why the DeLisle was so much better at what IT was supposed to do, eliminate sentrys at a medium range and allow an assasin the chance of escape.
[post=38231]Quoted post[/post]

Hi Plant Pilot,

My dad was with the 6th Div that took Tobruk and he had a lot of mates from the 9th who were Rats of Tobruk.

At my place one day when I was a youngster, I remember one of them speaking about the silenced guns they used to go out at night with on commando type raids to take German prisoners.

What would they have been using in 1941........SMG's / hand guns?

 

As far as I know the Silenced Sten was developed in 1942, first issued in 1943 and I'm not too sure that the middle east would have been the the first area of deployment with the SOE and commando units in europe being the first in line. The Sten was the first silenced SMG.

The silencer or suppressor was invented by Hiram Maxim (of Maxim Machinegun fame) in 1909 and so had been available commercially for pistols for many years by the outbreak of WW2. I can however find no reference to them being issued to troops in any theater and can only assume that it was either an Australian issue or that they were bought commercially and fitted locally to issue pistols. The issue .445 Webley and .38 (for the British anyway) being revolvers, would have minimized the effect of surpression due to the escape of gases between the cylinder and the barrel.

I'm not sure if the Australians were issued with automatic pistols, but if they went on patrol with silenced weapons it would have been more likely to be pistols rather than rifles and the silenced SMG had yet to be developed.

Hope that helps.