D-Day StuG III

Hello Philip,
I now have a copy of all the docs from my wife - there is a staggering amount to go through!

[QUOTE=" the names of the other crew members of Lieut. Charlton's tank? Cheers
Philip[/QUOTE]

I now have the crew names and a photo of the troop ...
Lt C Charlton tank
Trooper Mathews (killed)
Lt Charlton (injured)
L/Cpl Day (injured)
Cpl McClaughlan (walked away)
Trooper Camphor (walked away)


Ray

 

Hi Ray,

If you do, I have a large hard drive readily available. Naturally, purely to keep a back up of them for you.

So, your Father-in-Law was the gunner after all?

The German 352nd ID communications log from 6 June states at 15:50 that the assault guns had arrived and at 17:30 that their forces had withdrawn to St. Gabriel. So, the action must have taken place between those times - probably nearer 16:00 than 17:00.

Your father-in-law's tank was most likely on the landing craft with the Serial or Landing Table Identification Number (LTIN) 2403 which was the eastern-most of B Squadron's craft and therefore nearest to Lavatory Pan Villa. Which actual landing craft this was is not clear unfortunately.

Not at all. Much better knowing of anomalies than being wrong with an assumption.

Thank you for the crew list and for taking the time to pass on all of what you are finding. I for one greatly appreciate it.

Cheers

Philip

 

Philip,

I am not familiar with the officers in 4/7 DG. What do you mean by Squadron Reconnaissance Officer? Was Capt Monckton B Sqn's 2nd Captain?

If so, couldn't he have commandeered another tank after his got bogged? This was rather frequent on D Day, and his rank would have made it all the more likely.

Michel

 

Michael,
I have a copy of 'The First and the Last' which contains a list of all the 'Key Posts' in the 4th/7th on D Day. Each of the tank squadrons (A,B & C) had a 'Reconnaissance Officer'. This post was different from the Second-in-Command who was a Captain in each squadron. (HQ, A, B & C).
B squadron's Second-in-Command was Capt J.D.P.Stirling.
if this helps
Ray

 

Ray,

"2nd Captain" is not "2nd in Command", who was the "first" captain. I have just learned that the 2nd Captain was sometimes called Reconnaissance Officer.

Could you post a scan/photo of the list from "The First and the Last"? This book is rather difficult to obtain and when it does appear, reaches astronomical prices...

Michel

 

Michael,
here you are.
The book is very good having been written in 1945 when memories were fresh and documents still to hand.

Ray

 

Ray,

Thanks a lot. I have read extracts from the book but never saw that list. Great information!

Michel

 

Hi Michel,

Yes, the Recon Officer was the squadron’s spare or second Captain. Whether Captain Monckton was in #42 and commandeered another tank is an unknown, I’m afraid. At least in the material I have found so far. In fact, the actions of B Squadron on D-Day seem not to be as well documented as the other 4/7 RDG squadrons are, in my experience. As an aside though, A Squadron’s Second-in-Command, Captain John Stirling’s tank bogged in a shell hole on the beach on D-Day but he stayed with it for several days before commandeering another tank and leaving his crew to continue trying to get theirs recovered.

If anyone does know any more about Monckton or indeed of B Squadron’s progress that day, I would be very pleased to hear from them.

Cheers

Philip

 

Hello Phillip,

I have attached a scan of a page from The First and the Last which records the loss of Lt Charlton's tank and also that of Sgt Anderson (in which Capt Monkton rode)
You can see that Sgt Anderson and Trooper Hird were killed and that Capt Monkton and Trooper Airey were wounded.

It is my understanding that Sgt Anderson followed Lt Charlton down the road where the action took place in which the StuG knocked out Charltons tank.
It was Sgt Andersons tank (often referred to as Capt Monktons tank) which took out the StuG before themselves being knocked out by another StuG a little further inland.

The list of 'Tanks lost' makes for sobering reading.
Not all of them to enemy action of course, breakdowns and bog-downs would be included.
Perhaps even as a result on naval shelling too.

Cheers

Ray

 

There are two photos of his tank at different stages of despondency, on KING RED Beach:


The location:

 

Hi Ray,

That's a very intriguing thought, I had previously interpreted the passage in The First and the Last slightly differently and took Anderson's death to have occurred in one of the two tanks hit but not knocked out. Where is it that Sgt Anderson's tank is referred to as Capt Monckton's tank? I'd like to read that, if possible. Do any of CAB Day's papers support this or confirm Monckton's tank was bogged on the beach and that he took over Anderson's tank?

I reasoned that, if he had commandeered Anderson’s tank, Monckton would simply have turfed Anderson out and jumped in himself - possibly swapping others with some of his own crew too - leaving Anderson on the beach. There isn’t much room for a spare body in a Sherman and having one whilst going into action would most likely be an dangerous incumbrance. There is, of course, always the possibility that Anderson swapped with one of his other crew members and stayed in the tank or that Monckton took over someone else's tank or Monckton wasn't bogged in #42 in the first place.

One interesting snippet I found in the internet archive of the Creully Club newsletters was Ron Scruton stating:-

"1st Troop ceased to exist for a period after D-Day having lost two out of their three tanks to enemy S.P. fire on 6th June 1944."

The Creully Club - Newsletter

Unfortunately, he doesn't state which one survived although it is most likely to be the troop corporal's tank. The First and the Last states nine B Squadron tanks were bogged or knocked out on D-Day but I can only account for four possibly five of those so far. Do your late father-in-law's papers tell you whose tank(s) Ron Scruton and Tprs Airey and Hird were part of? Perhaps knowing that might help resolve things.

Cheers


Philip

 

Michel,

Here are two more ; )

Cheers

Philip



#1 - DEFE 2/430 National Archives
#2 - WO 171/153 National Archives (courtesy of Jonathon Ware @reassesshistory)

 

Philip,
unfortunately our collection of 4th/7th stuff is in disarray.
We lost our house in Scotland in a flash-flood which destroyed many letters, books and photos.
There are boxes of CD's which we have that may contain copies, but hat is a job which is beyond my capacity at the moment.
I am still working, despite being a pensioner and those CD's and their contents are quite a way down the list of 'things to do before the lights go out'.
One of the things Louise (my wife) remembers is a recorded conversation for TV with Ron Scruton but these need to be regarded with a degree of caution.
For example in one of his letters Ron states that Dickie Swift was in CAB's tank.
This is not the case, I don't know whose tank Dickie was in.
Louise met him on a pilgrimage but he found it too painful to discuss any of the action.

I took from post 37 on here where Philip said that Capt Monkton was credited with knocking out StuG 222, that this was 'his' tank.
I had thought that he was just a 'rider' in Sgt Anderson's tank, but as you say, that would have been hazardous.
Events in those early stages of the landings would carry a fair amount of nervous energy to them. Logic as I experienced it often has little to do with decisions in combat.

Books I have scanned pages from include:
D-Day to Berlin by Andrew Williams.
Churchill's Secret Weapons by Patrick Delaforce.
and of course The First and the Last.

Some of these books have vivid accounts of the sea crossing and the battle as seen from other regiments and ships companies.
Cross-referencing them often shows discrepancies but the overall feeling can be understood.

I have been collecting the odd magazine article too for at least forty years, these will be on one of the thousands of CD's we have.

As I type this Louise has just given me a very poor photocopy of a photo of the regiment sitting on two Shermans, given to her whilst on one of the Cruelly pilgrimages.
All it says is '4th/7th 1944' tank number 46 is in the background and although some of the faces are recognisable, most are not.
I have attached it - you never know, someone reading this may have a better copy with names on it.
(Always the optimist!)
It is another piece in a jigsaw, the size and shape of which we do not know.

To put some context in this, I am also researching the life of two of my uncles.
One a signaller in the RN, who saw a great deal of action in the Med. The other a pilot of (among other things) Short Stirlings to Arnhem.

Every once in a while you get another lead which takes you off in a new direction.

Cheers

Ray

 

Philip,
as a Post Script,
I have just listened to some recoded interviews with former regiment members which add a little colour to the events.
they are available on the Regiment website
.
Oral History - RDG Museum
I listened to
General Sir Robert Ford GCB CBE, Mr. Cecil Newton, Mr. Eric Johnston and Mr. Frank James. Each have a story to tell. there are of course many more TV documentaries and interviews available.
Patience is required as some of the speakers are very old gentlemen.
Again caution is required when dealing with facts, but it is always useful to hear first-hand anecdotes.

Cheers

Ray