D-Day - Stephen E Ambrose.

You are A bit behind the times Chant,... I have already written what occurred at Pegasus, and thoroughly! on this sister channel WW11F.

That was written ages ago. As to my sources at home? Well I have two official Royal Engineer documents.

But first, I spent a while at Pegasus Bridge. We replaced a shelled pontoon under heavy fire. The pontoon did not sink, some clever fellow put empty Jerry cans inside. Enough to prevent sinking completely. Its on record!

I read a lot about what happened on the bridge and its surrounds. I recall very clearly, there was no one around when the muck was flying about.

I am lucky in having a wonderful long term memory... But a shocking short term one!

IT is slao on record that the Sappers reached the bridge minutes before the relieving Commandos.

They much admired the piper and the smart Commando soldiers!

I have "The Route Forward" A history of the Third Division Royal Engineers

I also have the official history of my company from July 1939, until May 1945, with every event dated alongside the action that took place.

To add further info, I pushed a flaming garden roller across the battlefield in a Schu mine experiment. It had spikes welded on, and a long handle. A cut down gas mask to protect the face, and a woven rope protector round the groin..

It was demonstrated under battle conditions in front Air Vice Marshall Tedder, Monty's 2 I/C
There are others like you, that query what is written by the Veterans.
The Authors think they know more than the men that took part,.... So Knowing @No one would believe me@ ,I bought the Companies war diaries...Cost me £75, but worth it. Its all there. Everything I write about comes from my memory, or from Official Royal Engineers documents.

I return to the matter of Authors that quote each others books, and each time they use a bit, it gets changed to suit their own needs. But more often their own Prejudices. I have no axe to grind...No need...Owen has been tom visit me. Bless him....
Doubters? Next One please?
Sapper
PS I even found out the date I was wounded the first time, with an S mine through the documents. I did not know the exact date...
PPS The book? I had it printed for family and close friends,Cost me a fortune, One day I will get it printed, but at 85 and very severely injured the drive to do so just is not there.

 

Sapper

As you have what you say is the true record would it be safe to assume you are referring to the two Royal Engineer documents? Would you be kind enough to share the document file references as I'd love to read them?

By the way, the 'authors' you refer to usually do have a better OVERVIEW of the events described than the men who took part. It's due to amount of source material available from both sides be it first hand accounts, diaries, letters, interviews, memoirs and from sources that were classified for years after the event.

Nobody here has an axe to grind, it's just the curiosity that is aroused when someone declares that they might have information that may portray important historical events in a new light.

Regards

Jonathan

 

Authors do not have a better overview When they write drivel And Lord knows there is enough of that about.....
Some of the quotes are completely DAFT... and annoying One book had the Canadians landing on Sword and the British Div did not even exist I slung it in the bin.

The Veterans often "Clam up" because when asked about a certain event, they are disbelieved The Books know better

 

"The Veterans often "Clam up" because when asked about a certain event, they are disbelieved The Books know better"

....Or they publish (Geoffrey Wellum, Tom Neil etc) or for that matter record their experiences with the Imperial War Museum. The Forgotten Voices series are the Veteran's voices.

You say you have been invited to publish. Then do so and let your voice be heard over the 'drivel'

Jonathan

 

Not bothered... But! I will show you the front of the book.

 

Ah I see, so the trick is to make an unsubstantiated claim of knowing a 'true story' backed up by no evidence at all. Then refuse to answer any query as to the title/reference number of the said documents. Then dismiss anyone who dares dispute a version of events not witnessed at first hand as writing 'drivel' and then finish with a display of a sheet of A4 paper. Why not display what is inside and let us mere mortals in on the 'truth'?

 

Sapper. It is 246 Field Coy, 3rd Div. That you served with isn't it?

Did you ever serve with a Mr. RMS Maude? The reason I ask is that the following counters your own very numerous accounts of 246 Field Coy's exploits during the war.

"Mr R.M.S. Maude was a Major in the Royal Engineers, with 246 Field Company, 3rd Division, and 12 AGRE. In a letter to a relative, he described life behind the lines in Normandy:
“ You have entirely the wrong impression of what a battle is like! I will try and explain. You see you are only actually fighting for a very small part of the time, then you don’t get much time to sleep or eat. But most of the time both sides just sit and look at each other, and nothing happens except sporadic shelling and patrolling at nights. And a Field Company does not sit in the front line, but two or three miles back if it has any sense. When I was with 246 there were periods when we sat in our orchards in the sun and there was literally nothing to do, and we were bored. But apart from D-Day we were never involved in any heavy fighting except very sporadically, and most of the time it was quite peaceful and I used to play with the children next door and visit the doc in the evenings for a cup of tea and a chat. Our work consisted of road mending and mine clearance or tidying up, which was done as though we were in England except that there was always a risk of shells, but they are alright provided you get warning of the first one.
The French seem extraordinarily unconcerned about the battle and the swarms of troops in their orchards and villages. They just carry on their normal lives. They are always friendly and helpful if you approach them directly, but they don’t go out of their way to help or take notice of you.”
[Warren Tute Collection, D-Day Museum]

Here's the link - (scroll to the bottom) HERE

The reason for this is to show that there are indeed many vastly differing accounts of the second world war, and individual reactions to it. So, we're to be excused for asking for clarification, or further references. Even from veterans.

 

My first reaction is to tell you to grow up. But I will take the trouble to reply that letter was written to make the family at home not to worry.

Perhaps you would like to see the casualty lists that rather spoil your version.
OH yes. By the way, the Third Div Royal Engineers won more awards than any other Regiment of Corps in the Third Div. 43 to be precise.... And with less men in the field... But of course those gallantry awards were earned hiding away from battle...GROW UP.

The only reason I write about those times is to keep the memory of my departed mates alive.

Your posting is insulting. But if that is what you are aiming at OK....
I will not lower myself to argue the point.

PS I am sure our officers that were killed and wounded would be more than pleased to read your posting.

 

Reading the above I just don't see the point of continuing this discussion. You obviously aren't going to disclose the titles of the documents that support your story, if they exist at all. By the way, how do you know the letter was written in the manner you suggest it was? Got a document on that as well?

Using emotive language that involves the memory of dead men to cover the inadequacies of your evidence is distasteful in the extreme. Good luck to you in whatever you post in future from your amazing long term memory. I doubt I will be interested at all in it's content.

 

My first reaction is to tell you to grow up. But I will take the trouble to reply that letter was written to make the family at home not to worry.

Perhaps you would like to see the casualty lists that rather spoil your version.
OH yes. By the way, the Third Div Royal Engineers won more awards than any other Regiment of Corps in the Third Div. 43 to be precise.... And with less men in the field... But of course those gallantry awards were earned hiding away from battle...GROW UP.

The only reason I write about those times is to keep the memory of my departed mates alive.

Your posting is insulting. But if that is what you are aiming at OK....
I will not lower myself to argue the point.

PS I am sure our officers that were killed and wounded would be more than pleased to read your posting.

Sapper, I'm unsure if you're referring to my post? If so, then why so nasty a reply? What we've been talking about here are the ways in which historians see actions, and 'report' them, as opposed to those on the ground, as it were. What I intended to show was that here we have two very differing accounts of 'life' in the 246. Yours, and that reported by Major Maude. The question that has to be asked is who's right? What would a historian make of Mr. Maudes radically different take on things to yours?

Perhaps both accounts are 'right', and the simple fact is that war meant different things to different people, often in the heat of battle (or boredom), details become muddled, lost, detached from reality, even. It's then down to the historian to take all accounts into consideration, and attempt to sort out a version that's as near the truth as possible.

What I've done, as I hope you'll agree, is to highlight just how difficult that can be.

 

Gentleman, remember Brian is a veteran. This can easily be discussed in a rational and friendly way, which it is not at the moment.

Over the years I have interviewed men who served in the same unit at the same time, and their stories and memories often differ widely. That isn't a surprise to be honest.

I won't entertain any suggestion - even lightly - that Brian is somehow some sort of fraud, because that is clearly not the case for those of us who know him and we do expect respect for our veteran members.

 

Paul

Your comments are duly noted and accepted.

I would never disrepect a veteran of any conflict. However, respect is a two way street and to say that I am in some way helping to slur the memories of men who fell in battle is distasteful.

Jonathan

 

Gentleman, remember Brian is a veteran. This can easily be discussed in a rational and friendly way, which it is not at the moment.

Over the years I have interviewed men who served in the same unit at the same time, and their stories and memories often differ widely. That isn't a surprise to be honest.

I won't entertain any suggestion - even lightly - that Brian is somehow some sort of fraud, because that is clearly not the case for those of us who know him and we do expect respect for our veteran members.

Hi Paul.

I believe that I have conducted this in a rational and friendly way. I'm sure Sapper would agree. My aim is to point out that people like Ambrose had a difficult job in sorting the 'wheat from the chaff', as it were. You of all people should know that. I don't believe it's the intention here to defraud anyone, but ask simply for facts to be brought to light, that could be of interest at the very least, or to maybe even re-draw the battle lines.

I'd hope that Sapper will eventually re-think his stance and provide the forum with those details he alludes to? I for one would be interested in knowing 'the truth'. Wouldn't you?

I can however sympathise with Jonathon in his frustration. While I do remain very respectful of veterans and their actions, I don't hold with the opinion that they're infallible, by very virtue of the fact that they are, indeed, veterans.

 

Gentlemen

At the risk of promoting cries of cries of "Horror !" , "Shocking!" and "Disgusting" let me say from the onset that I have read precious little about "D-Day" and Pegasus Bridge and have opined about it even less.

Despite having pontificated for sometime about what it was like to be an ordinary squaddy in the Central Med area, the war in Normandy was never my scene and therefore I left it for others to discuss it at length and make their own opinions on who did what, why they did it and were they right.

What I do consider myself fairly clued up on is the study of human nature and I believe I can recognise bear-baiting a mile away.

Without naming any names at all may I suggest that you promptly get off Sapper's back ?

Immediately, without any qualification whatsoever and sharply before the moderators close this thread down to keep the peace.

Ron Goldstein

 

With respect, Brian has published his memories widely on the net. Whether you chose to believe them or see them as a credible source is entirely up to you, but I am afraid I will not entertain you calling one of our veterans into question in any shape or form. You can act as innocent as you like, but the intention of your post is clear.

I agree absolutely that respect is a two way street and how Brian choses to conduct himself is entirely up to him, but to a man of his generation a discussion forum like this is something akin to alien technology and quite frankly we are damn lucky to even have the likes of him reading a site like this, let alone post on it.

 

I do believe it is perhaps the tone that the questions are asked.

I would take on board Paul's comments.

We are very honoured to have Veterans on this site to give real life a scenarios from their memories which can be added to by using historical reference books.

 

I do believe it is perhaps the tone that the questions are asked.

I would take on board Paul's comments.

We are very honoured to have Veterans on this site to give real life a scenarios from their memories which can be added to by using historical reference books.

Of course I take on board Paul's comments. I just wish that ALL comments were afforded the same validity here. When we have a discussion whereby pieces of work and indeed authors are called into question, is it not right that we should attempt to find out why?
Come on. Stop trying to ascribe a conspiracy theory where there isn't one and just read back a little? I believe I've posted with respect, and I do apologise if there's a hint of any 'tone'!

We have the chance to perhaps learn of new information about a crucial engagement in the D-Day landings, and I'd like to hear what it is. That's all.

 

I'm not in anyway trying to act the innocent. I stand by what I said. As I seem to be coming under the sustained fire of the mods for expressing an opinion that is not to their liking perhaps it is best I depart the forum?

Both men and women died, and in some places still do, for the freedom of speech. I wish no harm or ill will on the veteran in question.

Good luck with the forum for the future. It is excellent.

Regards

Jonathan

 

Jonathan my comments were aimed at Mr Chant above.

I suggest everyone take a deep breath and make a cup of tea.

 

One sugar please if anyone is mashing ...... I'm stuck on the sofa and Andrea has gone to bed