D-Day - Stephen E Ambrose.

I 'listened' to D-Day, Band of Brothers and Citizen Soldiers in the car from Yorkshire to a few days driving around Dunkirk and back again. Whilst they were obviously not that accurate in places and I think I mentioned on here before a year or so ago that the USAAF Troop Carrier chaps wouldn't be happy with what he wrote.

Overall I found them ok and enjoyed listening to him narrate (he has a certain voice for it) his books - They did the job to help pass the time while I was driving.

 

I've read his Band of Brothers which I thought was pretty well written.

Not sure about all the 'pro-american anti-british' attitude though. Shame the blokes no longer around so we could ask him in person where he gets his views from?

 

The key word was mentioned above: sales. You're not going to be a populist historian if you don't play to the crowd. I've also seen criticisms of Hastings that could be put down to appeasement of the US market.

I have to admit that I have mixed feelings about Decision in Normandy. It is well-researched and referenced but I do recall having to pull my head out of it several times and giving myself a slap. I can't help associating it with the phrase 'damning with faint praise'. Some good stuff in there, though.

 

But there, I am an old fashioned old Coot....

Hurrah for Old Coots!

 

I'd like to come back on the point that he was 'anti British'. I don't think that was it with him, though it could sometimes feel that way (as my post probably reflected), and if he was, what was the motivation for Pegasus Bridge. He was obviously, and proudly, pro-US, and I don't doubt that part of his motiviation was wanting to tell the stories those who fought and served. That emotion did show up in his writing, which I think was probably part of his popular appeal.

But...part of his style, his approach, was to firmly embed himself with the particular group he was writing about. That group could then, in his eyes, do no wrong. Yet like most writers, he recognised that conflict was an important ingredient to a story, fictional or factual. Once he'd 'joined up' with the unit he was writing on, he had to find that conflict from elsewhere, those comparisions of 'his outfit' with someone else's to show the superiority of the former.

I've sometimes wondered if 'F Company' veterans formed a 'we hate Ambrose society' after the book came out. They were in the same Battalion as E, get two mentions re Normandy; one that they couldn't lead a night march, and two that they broke under pressure and left E Company to fight alone. That was his style to me though, if you were the guys he picked to write about, it would be glowing, anyone else though wouldn't half cop it!

Now when he pulls back to talk about not units, but formations or whole armies, I think he retained that approach, so to find that conflict he has to look wider. A favoured tack of more modern historians is to look for the tensions between Allies as much as conflict with the enemy, something I think he recognised.

My guess is, if he'd have found himself at a RAF squadron reunion in the 80s or 90s, and managed to make the connections he did with E Coy, within 12 months he'd have churned out a book us Brits would be quite taken with as showcasing the RAF contribution to victory during the war!

 

Neil Barber's book about Pegasus Bridge gives a very vivid account based on those that were there. Frightened the life out of me.

 

From one of the genuine sappers that spent some time at Pegasus...I have yet to read any book that knows what they are talking about....... And..I can tell you, Pegasus was a very unhealthy place at times... So that begs the question where were all these Veterans that were associated with Pegasus?

I try not to be a misery.But I do get fed up with stories that I know are not representative of the days we spent there. My foxhole was on the Western bank about 50 yards to the South. Not any more it aint ..There are trees growing there now
Sapper

 

Starfury, tend to agree with your posts, like your approach.

Mike

 

We are now seeing the same attitude in the gulf with BP's spill -it's all the fault of the British CEO - to-day the AMERICAN replacement CEO is saying that the spill isn't all that bad ! He is one of your lot - an honest one obviously !


Tom, I live in the area. It's not as bad as the news media wanted you think it was.

As for the plot to destroy BP...you're wrong about the oil companies. You're pointing your finger at the wrong entity. Without dragging this anymore into politics and xenophobia as you already have, British Petroleum is learning what the conservatives in the US already know about that jug-eared SOB and his syncophants in Washington DC.I've read his Band of Brothers which I thought was pretty well written.


Read Parachute Infantry, Webster, 1961. It is the book Ambrose borrowed a great deal from to write BoB. It is a far superior book.

I don't care for Ambrose at all and have only read one or two of his books. One was Citizen Soldier, and I found it terribly lacking.

 

Jeff -
I guess you are right as the man in charge is doing a good job in getting up everyone's back - his take on BP was really off the wall - I note he has quietened down a piece lately - it's overdue !
Cheers

 

I've little time for Ambrose.
'Never mind the quality... look at the sales.' So populist as to have had an odd distorting affect on casual perceptions of the war. Good writing style though, which perhaps explains the populism somewhat.

Moving on from pure negativity though, Carlo D'este is the best US perspective on Normandy I've yet read, though it's pretty long in the tooth now (c.30 years old?), so presumably more thorough treatments have been published since?
It'll sometimes irk a non-US reader, but rarely excessively.
And a bit of international abrasiveness is often part of the historical fun...


I'm reading this at the moment and its a good read. Might be 30 years old but is pretty good for its time. And he seems extremely fair too.

Perceptions - terrible things alright. And mostly false. The way this thread is headed, to the uninitiated, British people are very bitter and US historians are totally wrong and write only for profit. Both points are way off base.

 

Ambrose was a dreadful historian who wrote some dreadful history. His entire approach to the two volumes of his work that I have endured seem to be that 'they were great guys because I know some of them'. Hardly the basis for objective analysis is it?

Carlo D'Este is an outstanding writer and for me, a first class Historian.

 

To support Sapper's comment in Robin Neilland's The Battle of Normandy I believe the author has a pop at American post-war revisionist historians but goes out of his way to confirm that he has never heard anti-British sentiment from US Veterans of the Campaign. I have read Pegasus Bridge and don't think Ambrose is really anti-British I just don't think his books should be someone's sole source of info. as they do seem jazzed up at times.

There are several errors that do Ambrose no credit. See posts about Jimmy Green WW2 BBC The Peoples War (as regularly recommended by Ron)BBC - WW2 People's War - Kevan Elsby

In Ambrose's favour he was highly critical of the US replacement system in Citizen Soldiers stating that its randomness resulted in extra casualties.

Jim

 

Can anyone tell me (those that read Pegasus Bridge) if our names and companies are mentioned? I have never read the book, it it would be nice to know that our deeds were recognised

So can any one tell me what the book has to say? as I have the true record here at home,

By the way..We got on with the Americans very well indeed.Comrades in arms... BUT...Precious little is mentioned when they lost face.
At Overloon they took on the Germans and were given a bloody nose. After suffering casualties theyb departed to the South..never to be seen again...

We were left to clean up the mess the Americans left behind when they fled South........ I don't suppose the yank writer dwelt on that very much.

IN the round we suffered three time the casualties of the Americans but by the 18th Overloon lay safely in out hands.
Sapper

 

Sapper. What Ambrose mentions in the preface is that

"D Company of the Ox & Bucks was the first company to go into action as a unit on D-Day. It also had the most demanding and important task of any of the thousands of companies involved in the assault. It carried out its task brilliantly."

I'd say that's a pretty glowing synopsis.

To come back to something you said, and please don't think I'm 'having a go', or being 'disrespectful', I'm not. But, why would we believe that what you have written down is the true story of what happened at Pegasus Bridge? You know what happened to you, sure. In your immediate area, yes. But how would you be able to tell the whole story? It's only by talking to others involved in the action, and by piecing together the events that much of what really happened becomes clear.

What I'm saying is that if you have a story to tell that differs vastly from those accepted as 'gospel' (and don't forget that these are first-hand accounts by Howard, Wallwork, von Luck, Parr et al), then maybe you should offer them up for 'scrutiny', as it were? In the interests of 'the truth will out', and dispelling some of the 'urban myths' as perpetrated by Ambrose senior (among others)?

 

To come back to something you said, and please don't think I'm 'having a go', or being 'disrespectful', I'm not. But, why would we believe that what you have written down is the true story of what happened at Pegasus Bridge? You know what happened to you, sure. In your immediate area, yes. But how would you be able to tell the whole story? It's only by talking to others involved in the action, and by piecing together the events that much of what really happened becomes clear.



Funny you should mention that. Oviously I don't know what WW2 was like but I fought in Op Telic One (The Iraq War) and still don't know what happened today in any detail outside my own Squadron and I'm not even 100% sure nearly 8 years later what the other two Troops (A+B Troops) did all off the time apart from one was always 'Step Up' and the other being 'Main' and I worked from a Brigade HQ in Signals.

I'm still looking for a good book that covers in detail the British Forces during the Iraq War so I kind find out what we did apart from win.

Cheers
Andy

 

Funny you should mention that. Oviously I don't know what WW2 was like but I fought in Op Telic One (The Iraq War) and still don't know what happened today in any detail outside my own Squadron and I'm not even 100% sure nearly 8 years later what the other two Troops (A+B Troops) did all off the time apart from one was always 'Step Up' and the other being 'Main' and I worked from a Brigade HQ in Signals.

I'm still looking for a good book that covers in detail the British Forces during the Iraq War so I kind find out what we did apart from win.

Cheers
Andy

My point exactly, Andy. One man alone can't know everything. It's down to historians whether professional or amateur to gather together the info (preferably from first-hand accounts) and to honour the truth of what happened. If that happens to reflect badly on the subjects, then that's too bad. Rough to take when the individual could not possibly have fought harder, done better etc. But, that's for history to decide. It's all about corraboration. Does story A tally with story B etc....

As I'm sure you know mate. Apologies for the egg-sucking lessons.

 

Sapper

I'm suitably intrigued. You tell us you have the 'true record' with you. Would you be kind enough to share this record? I note that earlier in this thread you say you have had offers from publishers but have always declined. Are you prepared to put up your record of events here so it may be scrutinised objectively?

Regards

Jonathan

 

In Ambrose's favour he was highly critical of the US replacement system in Citizen Soldiers stating that its randomness resulted in extra casualties.

Jim

If I am not mistaken, that particular section discussing the replacement system was pulled from another book, almost verbatim. I have Citizen Soldier somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

Funny you should mention that. Oviously I don't know what WW2 was like but I fought in Op Telic One (The Iraq War) and still don't know what happened today in any detail outside my own Squadron and I'm not even 100% sure nearly 8 years later what the other two Troops (A+B Troops) did all off the time apart from one was always 'Step Up' and the other being 'Main' and I worked from a Brigade HQ in Signals.

I am spending a great deal of time in discussion with Old Hickory from WW2f, in an effort to write a book about him. His recon cavalry troop was split by platoons after hitting the continent in June 1944. He has said repeatedly that he had no idea what the other platoons were doing and oftentimes where they even were. He still doesn't know to this day.
As an aside, unless he stayed more than a day or two in a village or city, he rarely learned their names. Even when they exchanged gunfire, he often does not remember the town's name, unless a friend was killed there and then he is not always sure.