D Day Hertfordshire Yeomanry

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Dave Phillips, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    Just seen post #18. Thanks Danny. Interesting that he was attached to 5EY, but seems to have been coordinating 86 Fd Regt guns. I still think he may have been observing for the 86's Sexton guns as they were meant to lift their fire (from the LCTs) from 'STOOL' (the coast) to 'CUPBOARD' ( to the left of Mont Fleury). What is FOB 55?

    Dave
     
  2. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    I do have a copy of the 3 COBU War Diary but there is very little in it. It only has the April and May entries. The 1 COBU War Diary has a lot more information in it.

    I do not have the War Diaries for 86 Field Regt or 5th East Yorks.

    I don’t know if he would have been controlling the Sextons fire rather than the fire from the ships/craft. I know in some cases the Forward Observers from the Artillery units assigned to fire on the run in were afloat in Landing Craft Supports(Mediums) and controlling their fire.

    Steve, “FOB 55” was the number of the FOB Party attached to the unit, in this case 5 East Yorks. Normally the officer plus naval Telegraphists made up the Party.

    I believe that COBU came under the command of Combined Operations.

    As Idler says there were 11 FOB Parties assigned to 50 Div. These were numbered 51 to 61.

    Below is some information I put together some years ago from various documents at Kew. At some stage I plan on checking this out again and confirm/add more to it.

    Regards

    Danny

    Force G  FOB.jpg
     
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  3. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello All,

    A new term has crept up on us and so far, gone unnoticed, certainly by me until now - it is 'COBU'. Having done a little bit of research on this; and there is a dearth of web-based information - I believe this stands for 'Combined Operations Bombardment Unit'. If this is correct, why are we looking for Capt. Platt in a combined operations unit? Surely, he would be an Officer in the Navy, Army, or Air Force, attached to a COBU, and if Army (as we know him to be) belonging to a particular branch/regiment of the Army?

    So, extending this 'logic' I believe Capt. Platt probably was on the 'rolls' of a Royal Artillery regiment.

    If we look at the CWGC certificates for Capt. Platt and the two Royal Navy Telegraphists killed that day, this is what we get:

    PLATT, ARTHUR WILLIAM
    Rank: Captain
    Service No: 232847
    Date of Death: 06/06/1944
    Age: 24
    Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery, 86 (The Hertfordshire Yeo.) Field Regt.
    Grave Reference: XIV. L. 10.
    Cemetery: BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Herbert William and Nellie Platt, of Four Oaks, Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire.

    BROAD, WILLIAM ROBERT
    Rank: Telegraphist
    Service No: C/JX359269
    Date of Death: 06/06/1944
    Age: 20
    Regiment/Service: Royal Navy, Bombardment Unit 3
    Grave Reference: XI. D. 9.
    Cemetery: BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY~
    Additional Information: Son of William Edward and Elizabeth Edith Broad, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.

    PORTER, SPENCER CHARLES
    Rank: Telegraphist
    Service No: C/JX572702
    Date of Death: 06/06/1944
    Regiment/Service: Royal Navy, Bombardment Unit 3
    Grave Reference: IVA. N. 20.
    Cemetery: RANVILLE WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Sidney Hugh and May Porter, of Sidcup, Kent.

    What we see is that the two Telegraphists killed were both Bombardment Unit 3, Royal Navy and Capt. Platt was 86th Field Regiment, RA.

    I believe that Capt. Platt may have been a very late arrival in 86th Field Regiment, RA, who is then a casualty on 6 June 1944 and consequently doesn't appear prominently in the more usual official sources.

    The best source of confirmation is probably to apply for his FULL service records.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    Hello Danny,

    Our messages crossed...

    That's great information, Danny.

    I don't have the War Diary for the 86th Field Regiment either, but 'idler' has posted relevant snippets from this and the regimental history already. I have looked at the battalion history for the 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment and couldn't find anything of relevance. I do have the applicable War Diary for the 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment and will have a look at this in the morning...

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Looking back over what's been dug up, the 'error' seems to be my interpretation of the 86 Fd Regt WD that Platt was killed around 0825 which is close to the actual landing time of their guns. I think it is safer to view the 0825 timestamp as the time at which Platt's death was recorded, as we are now pretty certain that he was due to land with 5 E Yorks, along with some members of 86 Fd.

    The FOB parties must have been split in two: the FOB plus signallers landing on foot with the infantry, then its vehicle coming in at, in this case, H+90 in theory but 0835 in practice. The two 86 Fd Regt sources are simply referring to different elements of [probably] the same FOB party.
     
  6. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    There were 86 Fd Regt men landing at H + 20 with East Yorks on King Red. Perhaps the H and H + 5 landers had not yet fully dealt with the anti tank gun (which had destroyed three tanks) and machine guns by the time Platts LCTS was landing.

    I hadn't thought that 0825 might be the time that he was reported killed and that he could have been killed closer to 0745 (H + 20).

    After all I'm sure that with all that was going on accurate time keeping was the last thing on their minds!

    Dave
     
  7. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Sherman OP's and Sexton census numbers

    MENACE OP Maj R Kiln 342nd Battery C.O.
    Sherman II T331392 MENACE II OP Maj R Kiln 342nd Battery C.O.
    Sherman V T150478 OP
    Sherman V T228792 OP A Troop Commander
    Sherman II T233491 OP
    Sherman V T328792 OP A Troop Commander

    Sexton II S233701
    Sexton II S233823
    Sexton II S233969
    Sexton II S233988

    I wish I had further info.

    cheers

    Kevin
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I think the crux of it is that Platt probably wasn't on an LCT (unless he came in with their Bn HQ), he was either on a 5 E Yorks LCA or, possibly, on an LCS with the 86 Fd Regt FOOs to get a good view of the proceedings.
     
  9. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    Sorry my slip using LCT. I think you may be right and he could have been an extra man and therefore not showing up in the diaries etc.
     
  10. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    Just a quick line.

    I should have put in that most if not all of the FOB Parties landed with the Battalion/Commando Commanding Officers of the units they were attached to on the 6th June. So if the CO of the 5th Bn landed from an LCA Captain Platt most probably landed with him.

    As Idler has already said their vehicles were scheduled to land later.

    Steve, interesting to see that the CWWG have Captain Platt listed as 86 Fd Regt. Wonder if he is mentioned in the 5th Bn War Diary.

    The COBU were a mixed Army and Navy unit. Todays equivalent is 148 (Meiktila) Commando Forward Observation Battery RA.

    Regards

    Danny


    War Establishment for the unit in the Trux 21st Army Group section of the forum.

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/35302-forward-air-observation/

    COMBINED OPERATIONS BOMBARDMENT UNIT.
    War Establishment XII/140/1. October 1943.

    This is a War Establishment for landings in Italy but from secondary sources it seems identical to that used in NW Europe.

    Major
    9 X Captain, Bombardment Liaison Officers. (includes one as troop intelligence officer)
    Liaison officers were carried aboard the ships assigned to a bombardment role.

    7 X Observation Party each
    Captain, Forward Observation Officer
    observation post assistant
    2 X telegraphist RN
    1 X car 5cwt 4 X 4

    One troop of seven observation parties was usually assigned to each assault division.

    On D Day artillery surveyors were also landed with the leading elements. They were to erect marker beacons so that bombardment ships could fix their position and accurately engage targets on shore

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/18670-rn-fob/
    List of some books / articles that contain information on the COBU in Operation Neptune are in this topic.
     
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  11. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    Being new to the Forum, would it be protocol to start a new thread asking if anybody has the 5 East Yorks War Diary for D Day?

    Re read earlier postings Steve Mac says that he has the diary.

    Is it possible to apply for Service Records? I thought you had to be a relative.

    Dave
     
  12. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I believe you can apply for service records of anyone that's been dead for 25 years. They seem to have accepted a CWGC entry in lieu of a death certificate from what I've heard. I don't think there's much scope for doubt that he was 3 COBU and not 86 Fd Regt from the entry that DannyM found.
     
  13. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    I might consider applying for his records.

    Thanks for your help. He looks to be 3 COBU, but attached to 86Fd Regt and then 5 EY. CWGC have him in 86 FD Regt but I have found them to be wrong from WW1research.

    Maybe Steve Mac will find something in the 5 East Yorks diary.

    Dave
     
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    NAMING OF THE PARTS

    1. Naval bombardment. is controlled through the Bombardment Unit. This, unit is commanded by a Lieutenant-Colonel, RA) and consists of a small Headquarters and three' troops. Each troop is designed to provide observation of fire ona divisional front, and consists of one Major, fifteen Captains, seven NCOs -with twenty-one Naval signal ratings attached.

    2. The Combined Operations Bombardment Units (COBU) formed in 1941 to provide an organization that could replace the support of the field artillery with the support of naval guns. The organisation was under the command of Colonel COB, part of Combined Operations who was an adviser to Commander Combined Operations. Each COBU was commander by a Lieutenant Colonel who was on the staff of Naval commander of a task force and assisted the senior artillery officer with fireplanning.

    3. The Major commanding a Bombardment Troop is known as the Senior Bombardment Liaison Officer (SBLO) on the staff of the Naval Force Commander on the Divisional Commander's level. He will embark with the Naval and Military Commanders in the Landing Ship Headquarters. (LSH). He assists the CRA (Commander Royal Artillery) in the coordination of the fire plan as affecting the ships and craft detailed to support the division.

    4. The Staff Officer Bombardment (SO( B ) is the second in command of Bombardment Troop. He will go ashore with the Divisional Headquarters and will act as Staff Officer Bombardment to the CRA.

    5. One Bombardment Liaison Officer (BLO) - Captain RA.- is embarked in each bombarding ship or attached to groups of bombarding craft. He is responsible for interpreting the orders and observations received from-the FOB and advising the Naval Gunnery Officer on all military matters including the safety of our own troops,

    6. The Forward Observer Bombardment (FOB) acts as observer for bombarding ships.

    The FOB party consists of :-
    One Captain RA (FOB)
    One Artillery NCO (Observation Post, Assistant•(OPA))
    Two Naval Telegraphists (WT Operators)
    One Naval Signalman (For Visual Signalling)
    These parties are allotted on the basis of seven per assaulting division. Special FOB parties arc trained for co-operation vdth airborne forces, both paratroops and glider troops and commandos. Reference: Combined Operations Gunnery Instruction (1943)

    The FOB controlled the bombardment of ships. The FOOs of the SP unit concerned controlled the fire of SP guns on landing craft on the run in shoot .

    These functions did become blurred and the gunners made the communications work through the duplicated communication channels and liaison between shiop and shore. According to the notes I have, Captain Platt was killed early on and Captain Kiln based on the LCH took over co-ordination of the naval bombardment to support the 5 E Yorks as they mopped up la Riveria.

    It did go wrong in places D Day. The assault on the Hillman Bunker by A Coy 1 Suffolks lacked naval gun support because the FOB had been knocked out.

    PS I had met plenty of SOBs in my contact with the armed forces. I never realised it was an official appointment...
     
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  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If that's 'D-Day to Arnhem' Kiln, I'll have a look at his book tonight as I've not actually read his D-Day bit.
     
  16. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello All,

    I have found Capt. AW Platt in an ‘Officer Return’ dated 18 March 1944 within the War Diary for the 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment. He is reported as being on attachment together with Capt. WN Blaney as the FOB Party from the RA [= Royal Artillery], effective 8 March 1944.

    Idler; please note third variation of spelling of Blaney; your Message #13 refers.

    No mention has yet been found in the main War Diary of Capt. Platt's demise on 6 June 1944 and he is not included in the Officer casualties roll (an Appendix). I have not yet reviewed all of the Appendices, as they are too numerous and voluminous.

    I have tried to attach the aforementioned 'Officer Return' and four pages from an Appendix that caught my eye - written by Major A Consitt OC ‘D’ Coy (who was then A/Capt. and 2 i/c ‘D’ Coy), it describes the assault on King Red in very good detail. Unfortunately, these five pages, both, individually and as a file, are over the 2MB/10MB threshold for uploading documents. I will see what else I can do to get these documents posted here later!

    I will also search the War Diary in more detail later and revert if I find any other useful information!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
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  17. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    Thanks Steve that is brilliant!

    I wonder why CWGC put him in the Herts., when he is buried under a RA headstone? Plus he was attached to the 5 EY from March.

    At least we are closer to exactly where/ when Platt met his end.

    I'm amazed the 5 EY produced such a detailed description; the History on the Internet suggest one Company commanders was wounded and two platoon commanders killed at King Red.

    Dave
     
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList

    He is buried under the right capbadge as the Herts Yeo were strictly RA. They begat three artillery regiments - two field and one AA. 86 Fd was the only one that affected the Herts Yeo capbadge, the other two wore RA badges as they were supposed to.
     
  19. Dave Phillips

    Dave Phillips Junior Member

    Thanks Idler

    So the CWGC would not give him a Herts. badge even though they classed him as Herts? They would stick to the RA badge?

    I wonder if they did that to all 86 Fd Regt that lost their lives?

    Dave
     
  20. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Just had a quick read through Kiln' D-Day to Arnhem, which has plenty of detail on 86 Fd Regt's organisation. However, there are only a couple of references to 'Naval Liaison Officers' that we would know as FOsB:

    Capt Corke was there at the outset, in a bunk next to Capt Perry, OC B Tp, 341 Bty, 86 Fd Regt, on Empire Lance with 7 Green Howards.

    Capt Blayney isn't mentioned by name but Capt Ash, OC D Tp, 342 Bty, 86 Fd Regt, recounts how his carrier joined up with him "with the Naval Liaison Officer" (see post 13). They were with 6 Green Howards.

    Perry and Ash describe going in in LCAs as passengers, not observers, so we can assume that's how Corke and Blayney got ashore.

    I didn't see any mention of Capt Platt but there is obviously a slot with 5 E Yorks unaccounted for.

    Kiln himself watched the assault from LCH 267 and saw two AVREs get hit on the beach. The E Yorks mention how one AVRE, loaded as they were with demolition charges, exploded and caused lots of casualties amongst the troops on the beach. He also makes slightly ambiguous references to a Lt Woods amongst the command group who sounds like he was their COBU BLO.
     

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