Could Britain have defended against an invasion in September 1940?

Possibly take this to be part two of my poll on whether Hitler would have invaded Britain or was he bluffing.

In your mind (a personal view), with the information below that is "on record", could Britain have repelled an invasion?

I feel personally that one of the big advantages Britain had was that the Germans were limited to where they could invade.

This is the information gathered from threads over the years on this website to ponder but please forgive me if the editing is askew.

................................................................................................

With Dunkirk's evacuation ending on the 4th of June, Britain set about evacuating the rest of the forces in France which was not very well publicised then and not really well known now.

10th - The evacuation of British and Allied forces from the rest of France gets underway. Starting with Operation 'Cycle', 11,000 are lifted off from the Channel port of Le Havre.

15th - Operation 'Aerial' begins with the evacuation of Cherbourg and continues for the next 10 days, moving south right down to the Franco-Spanish border.

17th - The only major loss during the evacuation from western France is off St Nazaire. The liner “Lancastria” is bombed and sunk with the death of nearly 3,000 men.

25th - The Allied evacuation of France ends with a further 215,000 servicemen and civilians saved, but Operations 'Aerial' and 'Cycle' never capture the public's imagination like the 'miracle' of Dunkirk.

Nearly 550,000 repatriated to Britain to “fight” another day.

As for the Germans not attacking the Dunkirk evacuation and causing greater slaughter, thank the troops who defended the corridor to Dunkirk. Without the strong rear-guard there would have been more casualties.


Luck or intervention?

The 52nd Lowland Division evacuated intact with all their equipment from Cherbourg and were encamped at Kennet in southern England as invasion reserve.

Only two Brigades 152nd (Seaforths & Camerons) & 153rd (Gorden Highlanders & Black Watch) Brigades of the 51st Highland Division were captured at St.Valery-en-Caux on 12th June 1940. The third Brigade the 154th(Black Watch and Argylls) was evacuated from La Havre on 11th June.


From Owen:

1st Canadian Brigade Group.
Royal Canadian Regiment
Hastings and Prince Edward Island Regiment
48th Highlanders of Canada
1st Field Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery.

The CO of the RCHA objected to orders to ditch his guns. After a row and some wrangling they returned to UK with twenty-four 25 Pdrs.

Did you ever wonder why Canada did not declare war on Germany until the 10th of September? Because Canada used their neutral status in this interim period to purchase $20,000,000 of arms from the still neutral United States!

In June 1940 the British Army had 22 infantry divisions and one armoured division. The infantry divisions were, on average, at half strength, had only one-sixth of their normal artillery and were almost totally lacking in transport. There was a critical shortage of ammunition such that none could be spared for practice. VII corps was formed to control the Home Forces' general reserve, and included the First Armoured Division.



Added to this there were the following Commonwealth forces.

1st Canadian Div December 1939
(was held as GHQ Reserve near London)
2nd Canadian Div August 1940
Australian 18th Brigade (June 1940) Trained specifically to combat Parachute forces.
Australian 25th Brigade (Raised in England and included parts of 18th Brigade)


2nd Echelon, 2nd NZEF - On assembly on 12 January 1940 arrived in England 16th June 1940

Papakura:
'C' Squadron, Divisional Cavalry Regiment
21st Infantry Battalion
HQ NZE (details)
7th Field Company, NZE
11th Forestry Company, NZE

Ngaruawahia:
HQ NZA (details)
HQ and 31st, 32nd Batteries,
7th Anti-Tank Regiment, NZA
5th Field Regiment, NZA

Palmerston North:
28th (Maori) Infantry Battalion

Trentham:
HQ NZ Division (details)
Divisional Signals (details)
22nd Infantry Battalion
HQ 5th Infantry Brigade (4th and 5th Anti-Tank Companies attached)

Burnham:
23rd Infantry Battalion
HQ Railway Construction and Maintenance Group
9th Railway Survey Company, NZE
10th Railway Construction Company, NZE


Added to this there were 130,000 French troops lifted from Dunkirk.


Naval:


From Redcoat


This was the total RN strength in 1939. All would not have been available in September 1940 due to other duties.


15 Battleships & battlecruisers
7 Aircraft carriers.
66 Cruisers
184 Destroyers of all types
60 Submarines, mainly modern with nine building.
45 escort and patrol vessels
The first 56 'Flower' class corvettes on order to add to the converted 'V' and 'W's' and 'Hunts'



Supposedly there were 18,000 pillboxes (huge number) built for the invasion.


The Australians disembarked at Gourock in Scotland on 18 June of which the 2/10th was subsequently based at Lopcombe Corner, near Salisbury, in England.

The 2/1st travelled by train to England and went into camp at Tidworth Pennings on Salisbury Plain.

The 18th Brigade was resident at Amesbury Abbey in Hampshire.


From Redcoat:


The day after Dunkirk, the British army in the UK had,
52 Armoured cars
395 light tanks
72 infantry tanks (mainly Matilda MkII)
33 cruiser tanks
420 Field guns
163 Medium and heavy guns,

These figures would have been increased by 3 months of production, for the Sealow landings


Arriving aboard ship in June 1940 with the Australian 18th Brigade (Brigadier Morshead) were the following stores. (from the official diaries however I do not have access to the official manifest to identify the “War Equipment).

In Tons Measurement.

115 Ordnance
200 Medical
70 Red Cross
75 Comforts
400 Canteen
230 Ammunition
1360 Reserve Rations
60 Emergency Rations
1150 War Equipment
Also 58 Vehicles

These munitions etc were received from the US just after Dunkirk in July 1940"

- 785,000 .30 cal. Lee-Enfield rifles,
- 130 million rounds .30 ammo.
- 87,000 machine guns (various types)
- 6 million rounds .30 cal. machine gun ammo.
- 900 75mm field guns
- 1,075,000 75mm shells
- 308 3" Stokes mortars
- 97,680 Stokes mortar shells
- 25,000 BAR's
- 21,000 revolvers
- 1,000,000 revolver cartridges


Also:


Quote:
15. T.S.S. MANXMAN 1 Launched 15-6-1904 Gross Tonnage 2029.69 Length (BP) 334ft. Pass Acc 1st Class 1155, 3rd Class 865. Built for the Midland Railway Company she sailed on the Douglas - Heysham route before requisitioned by the Admiralty on 17-4 –1916. Being converted to a sea plane carrier she contributed to naval aviation by "flying off Sopwith Pup Fighters from her decks, although these had to land on the sea, where, supported by flotation bags they awaited to be hoisted on board again. The Steam Packet Co bought her when she was released from war service converting her to an oil burner the first Steam Packet Company ship to use oil fuel. In World War 2, again requisitioned, she served as a personnel carrier evacuating troops from Dunkirk and North West France. At Cherbourg fully ladened with troops and ammunition she only managed to escape from the harbour with the aid of a destroyer despatched specially to cover her evacuation, which fired upon a column of Panzers attacking along the quayside. Commissioned as HMS CADACEUS in 1941 she was converted to radio detection finding ship. At the end of the War converted as a personnel carrier, she ferried troops and refugees from Europe to England, finally being scrapped by I.O.M.S.P.Co in 1949.

 

I think the Channel was one of the best, if not the best defense Britain had.
The offensive action of bombing the French ports. Hold the key areas of the airfields coupled with the strong Royal Navy I don't think Germany really had the heart or a chance.

 

you are talking about invasion - okay. From the french? the italians or germans? especially in that timeframe the german navy was still recovering from the norway operation - why have you listed the total numbers of the english navy? how much of that is in the atlantic?, the indian ocean? etc. Personally I consider this question a bit pointless since the Germans never figured out how to walk on water...there wasnt even enough shipping assembled at that date and what about escorts? - read up on what the germans had to do in the Crete opration with the troops comming from the mainland and multiply that by....10 even if they had some shipping.

 

As Gage said The Channel was, has and always will be Britains best defence.

I think if the RAF lost the Battle for the skies we would have been in serious trouble with only the Royal Navy to stand in the way and as discussed on the previous thread I don't think the would have been as succesful as some may think. That of course would depend on how much Hitler would want to risk his capital ships. Everyone knows he wrapped them in cotton wool after the loss of Bismarck.

The key for the Germans in my book would be getting boots on the ground. If they managed that in numbers I think it would have been game over by the shouting.

 

It was done as an experiment by Sandhurst by doing some very extensive and exhaustive tabletop exercises, or as the press always put it 'war games', in the early 1970s.

With limited amphibious capability, the most successful part of the German invasion was thee airborne eliment. These managed to advance quite far and take ground heading for London. However, without German air superiority, the British Navy was able to send everything they had into the Channel from their Scottish holding areas and decimate the German supply routes across the Channel. On land the series of 'Stop Lines' did their job and slowed the German advance down long enough for the lack of resupply to make the force ineffective and forced to surrender.

At the time the exercise was played out there were plenty of veterans who were quite high up the chain of command during the war, from both sides and all agreed that at the conclusion it was an accurate portrail of how things would have gone.

There must be a link to the report, the exercise or the conclusions out there somewhere.

 

It was done as an experiment by Sandhurst by doing some very extensive and exhaustive tabletop exercises, or as the press always put it 'war games', in the early 1970s.



http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/16372-would-hitler-really-have-invaded-britain.html#post159247

 

I have to agree the very real difficulties which the Germans fully appreciated in getting across in the first place was a first line of defence.
I think the British would have been able to defend both on the ground , at sea and in the air.
The Germans would have been at a disadvantage from the start , we might have taken heavy losses but the Germans would not have succeded.
It would have been impoossible to have sent the whole of the Royal navy into the Channel but the British had enough to seriously disrupt ,to reinforce and to sustain pressure on a very shakey German supply system.
For the Germans to have made preparations at sea - mine laying and clearing - the British would have been in a good position to know who was coming where and paratroop drops - they would have been well aware of what they were after - points to fly into.

Gallipoli or Crete are the nearest things we can see to compare a operation like Sealion to - major landings with no specialised shipping.
At Crete the Germans had command of the air - they would not even have had this in 1940 and if they had achieved it could it have been sustained - highly unlikey.

 

If Leigh-Mallory and Douglas Bader had been in charge or had anything to do with the running of 11 Group then the Germans might of had a chance.

 

Here is a copy of an operational order dated 24 September 1940 to the 7th Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment. They were reformed in July 1940 with a cadre of experienced!!! officers and men with the remainder being called up from civilian life. Hardly formidable opposition to anyone.

The order covered the units anti-invasion role, which was to defend against the arrival of enemy paratroopers in the Nottingham area.

It is an interesting document to read, particularly the equipment with which the infantry troops were expected to engage the enemy, especially the tank hunting platoon.

It gives a useful but small snapshot of part of the UK.

Let me know if you can't read it and I'll try and improve the quality.

 

Spidge,

Of the Royal Navy Fleet, I have no idea of the totals in such areas as Singapore, Durban, or even Sydney, but if Mr hitler had actually sent his barges across the Channel then every available ship in the Atlantic, at Gibraltar, and the Med would have been called home ASAP. The convoys would have been left to fend for themselves for the duration of the battle, probably less than a week.

Interesting info re Canada and the $20,000,000! Any info on what was purchased?

John.

 

Dunno if any of the veterans on here can comment but, My father said that after Dunkirk, when on guard duty at change over, the limited ammunition that they had was handed to whoever was relieving them, sometimes only 3 rounds.The only ammo of any real amounts was for the anti aircraft machine guns on aerodromes.
My late Father-in-law on returning from Dunkirk, recalled, going out on training along country roads etc. armed with Broom handles representing rifles. Both were of the opinion, at the time, that had Hitler managed to get across he could have walked anywhere he wanted as we had nothing much to fight him with.

 

Dunno if any of the veterans on here can comment but, My father said that after Dunkirk, when on guard duty at change over, the limited ammunition that they had was handed to whoever was relieving them, sometimes only 3 rounds.The only ammo of any real amounts was for the anti aircraft machine guns on aerodromes.

Hi 51 Highland

Your Dad was spot on, even two years later it was still 5 rounds of ammo and I mentioned this in another thread:

In December '42 I was stationed at Whitby being trained as a Driver/Wireless Operator in the Royal Artillery.

Most nights, after a hectic day's training, we would find ourselves on guard and manning pill boxes strategically placed on the cliff tops of nearby Robin Hood's Bay.
Two men to a pill box, armed with Lee Enfield rifles and 5 rounds of ammo each.

The pill box had no creature comforts whatsoever, just the bare bleak concrete walls, the only light coming through the weapon slit facing seaward. Toilet arrangements non existent, ditto for seating, and food was what you had been issued with if the cooks were in a good mood.

However many layers of clothing we donned before going on guard we froze and by the end of our shift we were comatose having exhausted whatever conversation we used to keep ourselves awake.

You could say that England was slightly un-prepared for a German attack !

The full thread is here:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/other-research/13600-youre-guard-mate.html

Regards

Ron

 

Spidge,

Of the Royal Navy Fleet, I have no idea of the totals in such areas as Singapore, Durban, or even Sydney, but if Mr hitler had actually sent his barges across the Channel then every available ship in the Atlantic, at Gibraltar, and the Med would have been called home ASAP. The convoys would have been left to fend for themselves for the duration of the battle, probably less than a week.

Interesting info re Canada and the $20,000,000! Any info on what was purchased?

John.

As I said, if only a third of those were there for home defence, it would have been adequate.

I did not want this to become a "What if" just to get opinions if this material would have been enough to repel an invasion by 25,000 to 30,000 paratroopers.

What we have to take into account is that the RAF was not beaten. The home guard did not have more than 2 or 3 bullets however this was not what was available overall.

Anybody with any sense was not going to give huge amounts of ammunition when it could be used better by well trained troops when it was needed.

With respect to the Canadian purchase, I read this many years ago. Apparently is was a mixture of everything they could get at short notice.

I need to have a look at what the 18th Brigade were given in Bren guns etc by the British when they were at Amesbury Manor.

It may have been as little as 25 Brens per battalion however I would have to go back and check.

 

The home guard did not have more than 2 or 3 bullets however this was not what was available overall.

Anybody with any sense was not going to give huge amounts of ammunition when it could be used better by well trained troops when it was needed.


My father and Father-in-law were supposedly trained men by this time, carrying out coastal defence etc. Historical records say that they received a total of 22 Bren's, with limited ammunition, in september 1940, 12 of which were almost immediately taken away to be given to another battalion. So I think that they had good reason to worry about being able to put up a reasonable resistance. 7th September code-word "Cromwell"___ presaging immediate invasion, was received.

 

Dunno if any of the veterans on here can comment but, My father said that after Dunkirk, when on guard duty at change over, the limited ammunition that they had was handed to whoever was relieving them, sometimes only 3 rounds..

Funny how nothing has changed

 

At what point (Year) was the Home Guard equipment up to strength? I know it was only a film but Dad's Army had men with pitch forks and knives on broom handles before they got issued rifles.

I don't know if that was a accurate portrayal but maybe a consideration ?

Cheers

 

Funny how nothing has changed
Yes, But hopefully we are not under threat of invasion, except by those seeking a better life!!!

 

Yes, But hopefully we are not under threat of invasion, except by those seeking a better life!!!

I ment on Operations in Iraq and the Balkans.

 

Funny how nothing has changed

I take it you mean 'funny' 'strange' rather than 'funny' 'ha ha'.

Things do tend to go round in circles and have to be re-learned on a regular basis.