Cooperation between Infantry and Tanks - Use of the No 38 Set

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Packhow75, May 10, 2017.

  1. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    The title... straight out of Army Training Memorandum no 49, 1944...

    Summarised:

    The Infantry are responsible for the net and frequencies... the frequencies selected not to interfere with the No 19 set use.
    All Tank units designed for cooperation with the infantry will be equipped with the No 38 set in addition to the No 19.

    My questions...

    I assume that in 1944 the No 38 AFV was not in use and that the No 38 issued for use will have been the standard man-pack set. This assumption because ATM 49 does not differentiate when discussing the No 38 set between Infantry and Tanks, and that I have not seen any pictures from the period which show the No 38 AFV fitted.

    Is anyone able to confirm please - would the No 38 set at this time have been the man-pack version as I have assumed?

    Working on this assumption further, given the noise within the tank, limited space and specific duties assigned to the crew, who would have been tasked with using the No 38 set (Loader/Operator?) and how would they have managed this while listening to the No 19 set or intercom?

    Perhaps the No 38 set was only used when the vehicle was stationary... with a rear mounted Telephone for occasions when the Infantry needed to talk to the tank in action?

    Does anyone know please?

    Many thanks

    Tim
     
  2. Tolbooth

    Tolbooth Patron Patron

    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    "All Tank units designed for cooperation with the infantry..." ought not to apply to Fireflies as they were issued to Armoured, not [infantry] Tank, units. That said, didn't your FB post mention that one was included on the Firefly's stores list?
     
  4. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Nice to see you read my facebook post - hard to tell sometimes who does!

    Correct the Firefly CES has 1 x WS38 listed.

    I think for the Firefly, I will stick with the standard WS19 installation and consider carrying a standard WS38 in the turret as a loose item... that will be much easier to manage given the wiring diagrams for the WS19 are common... as are the parts.

    Unsure what the WFW Website photo is from - looks a bit too spacious to be a Sherman, and the Variometer is on the wrong side of the set for the WS19 mounted in the rear of the turret - have mislaid my WFW vol 2 where I suspect some of the answers will exist. Perhaps I need to email Louis and ask him.

    However, if anyone here knows though, that would be great.

    Tim
     
  5. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    The following passage is from Simon Godfrey's British Army Communications in the Second World War: Lifting the Fog of Battle pp 194-5
    Frequency issues seems to bedevil British wireless communications throughout the war, particularly for the infantry.
     
  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Well for what it's worth, the Nov43 WE for a Tank Battalion had under the heading for organization;

    All tanks and scout cars, except where otherwise specified, are fitted with one No.19 set. Tanks, infantry are, in addition, fitted with one No.38 set, and certain “B” vehicles are fitted with wireless

    Now whether the term 'fitted' is of particular importance in identifying whether the set was manpack or vehicle type I'll let others judge.

    There is a Nov44 manual online for the WS38 II or II* in Churchill tanks, which is noted as the second edition.

    Gary
     
  7. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Gary

    Do you have a link for that manual please - have not found it to date.

    Thanks

    Tim
     
  8. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Tolbooth's photo is of 38 AFV in a Centurian OP. I have Wireless for the Warrior Vol 2 open in front of me. Other illustrations seem to be of Churchill installations.

    Mike
     
  9. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Tim,

    This is the site I found the manual from, you want refs 329 and 2454 for No.38 sets in AFVs specifically, though obviously there are lots more on there;

    VMARS

    In the book quoted by Orwell1984 there's a table of holdings of radio equipment by ordnance from May 1943 for Inf, Armd and Mixed Divs. It allows you to work out the full scale allocation for sets. The Armd Div had just 90 or 91 x WS38, the Inf Div 273 x WS38 and the Mixed 345 x WS38. This of course assumes I remember algebra correctly. If I do then as the Mixed Div replaced an Inf Bde with a Tank Bde, that strongly suggests they had WS38 in the tanks (there was no note on the 1942 WE for a Tank Bn re set types).

    I appreciate you're after info re the Sherman (have you really got a 1:1 scale Firefly to play with, I mean work on?) but neither British nor Canadian Armd Regts WEs mention them, at least until the 'standard' Armd Regt WE from May45 which replaced the separate cruiser and infantry tank tables.

    Gary
     
    Packhow75 likes this.
  10. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    A topic I've ended up digging through...

    Given that Fireflies were also issued to Independent Armoured Brigades, specifically for supporting Inf Divs, there should be something.

    From memory, Tank Commanders were responsible for the WS No. 38 set inside, rather than the Wireless Op, so to directly liaise with their Infantry Counterparts.

    As a side note in Independent Armoured Brigades in Normandy, I've seen indications they use infantry WS No. 38 Sets in Shermans, but would have to go back through to confirm, what applies to one formation certainly doesn't always apply to all.

    There is one key problem which we always forget about the whole-shebang. The Inf Officer has to be constantly on net and available, given that he requires the his Wireless Op to be in close proximity this isn't possible and leads to constant comms issues. So the Tankies were often broadcasting to someone who simply wasn't listening. Combine the use of 4' battle aerials, terrain, the 38 set (junction box, low power and all that jazz) problematic skip zones, interference from the tanks themselves, the Inf Wireless Op becoming a casualty etc - it was a well meaning system which often failed in action.

    Tank telephones were often ripped off or shot off in action as well, which reduced their utility (and you had to be pretty brave to use the bloody things as a squishy little Tommy vs 35 tons of potentially suddenly moving grindy steel.)

    NB

    Just checked Mark Hayward's Firefly book (pp44-5), clear images from Bovvy of stowage diagrams - the IC has a built in WS No 38 set (certainly appears AFV to me), VC has nadda.
     
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  11. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Yes. ;-)
     
  12. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Blimey. I've just bought a dehumidifier, so...
     
  13. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Havent seen one of those on the CES listing.
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    That was only needed for the ones with wet stowage...
     
    Packhow75 likes this.
  15. Packhow75

    Packhow75 Senior Member

    Of course... should have known :rolleyes:

    Hence not appropriate for the Firefly.
     

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