Comparing 'National' Archives

I've never looked at the Library of Congress site before but it looks pretty good.

Home | Library of Congress

 

Von Poop,

Could this report, which is about British colonial archives be related?
Link: Uncovering the brutal truth about the British empire | Marc Parry

 

Lots of Enfields and Stens

 

Since we cannot visit our own National Archives in person at the moment I searched my photos for random pictures of the Kew I visited in years gone by. I vaguely recall going to the Chancery Lane Public Record Office before digital cameras were invented. In theory you are not allowed to take photos of the rooms at Kew but these are several years old and I can't see me returning for many months, even years. I've also included an exhibit from IWM for VP, and an image of the interactive parade ground exhibit from the National Army Museum, because I think it is good fun, designed for young people to try standing still under the gaze of a motion detector arrangement, if that makes sense. The digital soldier shouts at you if you don't stand still or mark time on the spot properly. I would be interested to see photos from other National Archives. Just very general stuff of a "grand day out."

 

The only experience I can offer here is not really WW2 related. I have found that the UK National Archives have very little records/documentation related to British Guiana/Guyana, most of them having apparently been left in country after independence (which creates other issues for access today). I'm not sure if that is the case for other ex-British colonies - I'd be interested to find out.

 

The US Archives, or NARA, have a plan: ( FY - financial year )

" 1.2 By FY 2024, NARA will digitize 500 million pages of records and make them available online to the public through the National Archives Catalog.
NARA has committed to digitize all of its traditional (analog) holdings and make them available to the public online. NARA holds approximately 12.5 billion pages of documents, photographs, films, and other records in analog formats, the majority of which are only accessible in-person, in public research rooms or through reproductions provided in response to specific customer requests."

See their plan here: https://www.archives.gov/files/about/plans-reports/strategic-plan/2018/strategic-plan-2018-2022.pdf

Australian Archives had a review:

Tune Review of the National Archives of Australia | naa.gov.au

 

I feel that digitising will take off due on the current climate.
We cannot be left behind in any area.
Based on the speed certain businesses have organised themselves with apps and online service over the past 9 months if we don't follow we will reside in the stone age
When you contact more local archives it is always a problem.”Oh yes that department is looked after by Emily and she only works every other Thursday when there is a blue moon”.
Get it all online now.

Plus there will be a big headcount saving when completed.

 

The overall situation in Canada is a bit muddied, looking at the wikipedia page. Talk about goals of digitisation and priority to scanning documents, but criticism that this was used to gloss over budget cuts.

The main Canadian archives building in Ottawa is in a fairly prestigious location (west end of Wellington St, so down the street from the Parliament Buildings, just past the Supreme Court. However, when they built the current building in 1967 maybe they didn't anticipate how many files there would be? Or in any case more and climate-controlled storage was needed and unavailable in the building. The location (backed against the Ottawa River) had no available land next to it, so the new storage facility was set up across the river in Gatineau. As a result, it's ONLY possible to access paper files by requesting them days in advance. Microfilm is on site. I think photo negatives are also off site.

(On the other hand, whenever you request a file, you don't get the file, you get the archival box containing the file, so you can do some exploration of adjacent records.)

I am thinking that this mistake with the location might reflect Canada's youth; if the country was older and had more archives, maybe a location with more room would have been chosen.

 

I'm in two minds about this and be careful what you wish for.

My problem with the TNA approach to digitisation is that the access is increasingly only through commercial sites like Ancestry, FMP etc. While I understand these companies have probably provided the funds for the digitisation the real kick in the teeth is that, after actually going to the archives in person, you can not even order the physical files "as they are available online". That's fine if you want to shell out £300+ a year and counting (and I do) but not everyone can afford that.

My other beef is that the early digitisation was poorly done i.e. in black and white, not even greyscale. Some of the files I want are barely readable but you have to make a massive effort to get to the physical file as again, "they are online".

 

I do understand what you are saying.Yes early stuff was a bit hit and miss.
Living in London (or any large town with and archive of your choice) it is easy to visit places or if you are mobile. We do have a lot of people who cant access and are willing and able to pay for the digital service plus some don't have the knowledge/time to access the material they are after.
My comment about talking to smaller local archives still stands whilst they try their best the timescales for satisfying information are elongated.
Government departments are dinosaurs in many areas.I sent an email and query form with all documentation attached to one Gov Dept advising them that they had spelt a VC recipients name incorrectly on the VC paving stone.Chase ups and 18 month later no reply.
Dinosaurs they are (Yodo)and they need modernising and digitising urgently.

regards
Clive

 

It is very interesting to hear about Canadian archives from the "day out" point of view. ( By the way, I have never eaten breakfast at Kew, but just arrived very early. Andy Drew used to enjoy breakfast at Kew after setting out from West Yorkshire at 4 in the morning. At Kew I either arrived very early or just wandered in mid-morning, usually staying until late. When there was an experiment with opening until 9 p.m. ( actually always encouraged to leave 20 minutes before closing time ) it was very peaceful and productive in terms of photos taken. )

Kew's business priority is the digitisation of the 1921 Census and the matter was discussed at the Board meeting in February. Remarkably, publication of Board minutes are ahead of the "day-to-day " director's meetings minutes at the moment. ( Publication of minutes online for the Board up to June 2020, executive Directors only up to April 2020.)

See Item 11 here:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/board-minutes-2020-02.pdf

The 1921 Census tendering process indicates the huge amount of money involved but I have no idea how the contract is structured. see here:
Tender for 1921 Census Records Digitisation and Licensing

As for the Kew experience I enjoy having the library at Kew virtually to myself but I recognise that a lot of tax ( or Government borrowing to be repaid in 2050 or later? ) paid by millions of my fellow citizens and their unborn children pays for my enjoyment. Kew costs about £40 million a year to run. A bit like having a free pass to Wimbledon, and/or a Premier football team ( I'd rather watch my National League team ), and/or any number of events. Nothing quite like being there, handling the paper. Which, of course, will wear out if too many people want to order it up.

 

I shudder to imagine a Canadian "day out" experience like Andy's. If you were in Montreal (2 hours from Ottawa) that would be fine, I suppose. My parents still live in Ottawa, so I have a very convenient place to stay

As far as digitisation goes, there has been some good progress and yet not maybe as much done by LAC as one would like. A whole lot of microfilm was digitised (the stuff on the heritage.canadiana.ca website) but that was some time ago. A lot of infantry war diaries were recently digitised but that seems to have been done by volunteers for the Normandy '44 map project. However the end result is PDFs created and hosted on the Library and Archives Canada website, so that's not bad. It seems like more photographs are being put online but I don't know at what rate. It would be interesting to find out if there is any equivalent to the Kew board meetings or if there is any way to find out what LAC has actually been doing and at what rate.

 

Hi Chris,

A couple of things to think about.

In the 80s and 90s, the LAC also had the West Memorial building right across the street. It housed their Access to Information section (now on the 3rd Floor, LAC) as well as their Inter Library Loans department and quite a few administrative offices. There was another government department in the East Memorial building which when they obtained their new headquarters left that building empty.

When I worked in the West Memorial in the 80s I asked my boss about 395 and why it was built so close to the Ottawa River. "Because it's the government and they don't think"

In those days, and I don't know when it changed as I was overseas, all military service files (not sure if I was told 11 kms or 11 miles worth) were housed at the Personnel Records Centre at Tunney's Pasture. There was no wait - I'm surprised to read one must wait days to order up files, my last trip to LAC was in 2016 and the same rule applied "Get your requests in by 9:45 am and you'll have them by 2:00 pm". But the PRC was great. You were given files, unredacted and a package of yellow post-its. You just put a post-it on the page you wanted copied and one of their staff would look to make sure addresses etc were redacted. Don't think they charged a penny.

LAC also have a storage facility in Renfrew, Ontario. First time I heard a staff member say "Renfrew hasn't made it here yet" I thought they were talking about a lazy employee.

Regards,

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, that's all very interesting! I admit, the files I have looked at have not been personnel records. AFV camouflage, war diaries, technical reports, etc. So there might not be any change with those files.

Chris

 

Canada's approach to funding of digitization appears to be here: https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/about-us/Documents/6799_bibliothequeArchive_EN_HR.PDF

The note on funding at the end of the document lists possible sources of money:

"FUNDING
In keeping with this strategy and in order to maximize cooperative efforts, various sources of funding will be explored, including:

1. pooling of in-kind and/or financial resources from different memory institutions; 

2. government funding; 

3. philanthropic organizations; 

4. collaboration with the for-profit and not-for-profit sectors; and 

5. crowdfunding. "

At Kew the management are forever going on about line 4, or working with partners as they call it. The UK Government is obsessed with flogging off the family silver, so would make Canada's No. 4 "For-Profit Sector" a definite No. 1. Kew is obliged to work within statutory duties but commercial organisations have no such obligations.

As for the ordering and copying at Kew, it was the case when I last visited in November 2019 that I could order on the day and wait 40 minutes for three files ( order next three only after first three reached the locker assigned to my seat.) Then keep on ordering.

That meant that if I was on a hunting trip I could order the next document based on what the first file contained. Kew decided to restrict that approach which caused great outcry and the Kew annual report 2019-2020 does mention this annoyance on page 14, published in mid-July:

" In March, we planned to start a six-month trial of new document ordering arrangements. The trial would have seen us test a service that builds on our advance and bulk order services. The proposal would allow researchers to order a total of up to 24 documents a day; 12 orders in advance and 12 on demand, and introducing dedicated ordering slots. The announcement prompted some questions and concerns from readers. The trial has now been delayed due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. When it goes live, it will be evaluated throughout before any final decisions are made."

We'll see.

Finally, when I order documents on a computer terminal at Kew I can also see all my previous orders, way back to when I first visited way back to the last century, a very useful tool.

LAC seems to have a long order form whereas Kew just uses the file reference and my reader's card scanned through a card reader.

Can you use digital cameras for free at LAC ? Are there enough camera stands ?

Recent proposed building works at Kew removed camera stands without justification, reducing the size of the reading room. Well, they said it was to improve facilities for school groups but really it was to restrict the numbers of researchers.

 

Yes, no charge to bring in your camera. The only thing they ask/demand is if you're not using a stand that the camera strap is on your wrist. Commissionaires routinely walk by to ensure the rule is being followed. Camera stands are not supplied. Around 2006 there used to be a card a staff member gave you authorizing the use of a camera (so as not to make the commissionaires suffer conniptions) but they've done away with that.

I tried to find a photo of the reading room that shows its size. Having been at Kew on numerous occasions I was disappointed at the size of the room in London. LAC also offers lockers where you can store files. So, they may close at 4pm or so but as long as you could access your files you could stay much later. I spent many a Saturday and Sunday with only a commissionaire as company.

As far as ordering goes you can request up to 10 boxes ("volumes") at the same time. Before you can open them a staff member has to make sure they are all declassified which involves a photocopy of your order form with a staff member's signature saying all is good. Anyway, the trick is to arrive with a second list of 10 and hand it in as you're collecting the first set. Keep that chain running.

Regards,

Dave

 

Dave,

I like "conniptions" ! Not a word I've heard here. I once gave a Kew blue-coat called Annie who was always looking for infractions "conniptions" by using a monopod to assist in photographing from a microfilm screen outside the main reading room at the microfilm section. She said you can't use a tripod and I said it was a monopod not a tripod but I desisted because it didn't help much. Most of the staff at Kew are very willing to help and are very pleasant but their morale has declined in recent years. A lot of them have taken voluntary redundancy.

The LAC reading room looks very bright and the chairs very comfortable. There is plenty of open space at Kew outside the reading room, so they put in a dining table. Truly ! Rather a cavernous dining establishment.

Gosh ! The very idea of having the run of the place at weekends ! How very sensible.

Kew can remove files from the "open" category. I am not aware of a vetting process after I order a file.

Have you been to the U.S. Archives ? They also seem to have the box or volume concept.

Thanks.

John

 

Hi John,

The Kew blue-coats. Brilliant. I had a package of chewing gun in my pocket. Not open but was told I had to put it in my locker, those 2ftx2ft plexiglass-doored messes. I got a silly look when I mentioned this was my fifth or sixth time out of the building this day.

LAC is quite comfortable. I forgot to mention the free PCs on the far right of that pic. I once answered a question on this forum from the nephew of an airman lost over Italy from those machines. Quite helpful that the wireless operator was RCAF. Another feature are the power bars on both desks and floors so no battery waste.

I've been to NARA both when they were located on Pennsylvania Avenue NW in Washington, DC and their newer complex in College Park/Suitland, MD. It's a great place that owing to some "researchers" had to tighten up security. But it's still no worse than Kew in that regard. Oh, they let me keep my chewing gum, without acting all dictatorial about it, just asked me not to have any while in the reading room. Of the three archives I found, all around, NARA is the best. How many places have two people in the job of captured German records?

Cheers,

Dave

 

Dave,

I tend to look at Far East war crimes and found that Greg Bradsher at NARA ( an expert on the subject ) was very helpful at pointing out other archives to help me. He went out of his way. A very pleasant man to correspond with. Someone else at NARA sent a letter with a photocopy of an affidavit from their holdings to a member here to whom I suggested getting in touch with NARA. I said that they would help, and they duly did. It is heartening when that happens.

Thanks for your post.

John