Good morning, I would like to address a delicate, tricky question to the expert members of this forum, directly concerning the Allied prisoners of war during WWII. While working on my research, related to a small group of former POWs escaped on the North-Westerm Alps after the Italian armistice, I found a precise historical reference to a collaborationist POW. Let me to state beforehand that, as a historian, I am not in favour or against a version, by instinct. I only want to collect as many evidences as possible on a single fact, also listening the accounts of the witnesses, and then to provide to the reader my best and most accurate reconstruction. That's why I am asking your kind opinion. The source I am working on (I will remain vague on both the source and the names of the involved POWs, of course) simply states that several prisoners were captured on mountain by a German patrol. This happened on the Italian Western Alps. Only one of them escaped, the other three were blocked by the soldiers. The day after, several German trucks stopped in the alpine village were these prisoners had been sheltered and protected by the people. One of these prisoners started showing the Germans the house where he was before, together with his mates, and the ravines where they hide during the worst moments. Moreover, he noticed a personal effect of the only escaped prisoner and started shouting him to come out, saying that he was free and alone, too. But the other prisoner saw the German uniforms around him and, of course, didn't say a word. He wasn't spotted or captured. The local inhabitants were absolutely persuaded that the first prisoner was a traitor. The Germans deported the wives of two men, who previously helped and assisted the group, and menaced for many days to burn the whole village. On mountain and at those times, before winter, this would have caused many deaths for starvation. The last prisoner, still free, remained as a guest of the local people until the end of the war. He, and an other prisoner, underlined in their following official reports the names and the acts of their helpers; this proved the truth of their "bona fides" and all the terrible risks they faced hiding and helping so many prisoners. As you know, whoever found together with an Allied prisoner in the occupied Italy was to be immediately shot, his family deported and the house or village burnt. My position is, to be sincere, a light unbelief. In the last two years I read a small mountain of books, essays, memorials, tales, official recors, document etc. on the Allied POWs in Italy. I interviewed dozens of people, among which families of both the escapers and their local helpers. I spoke and wrote to next of kins, historians and authors in Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand etc. And I have never read a word about a "traitor" POW, a collaborationist. Unfortunately, both these POWs (the supposed collaborationist and the last free man) passed away many years before, and their families are not aware of this story. As proofs I only have this precise account, proved by the very positive comments on the various helpers released by two former POWs in their escape and evasion reports. As far as I know, there were no trials or investigations on this supposed betrayal. I would suppose that it was all a great misunderstanding, since the local witnesses didn't know English very well. But the last prisoner remained there, among his Italian friends, until the end of the war; the detail of the "personal effect" he lost in the village just before the German arrival came directly from him. And he was directly addressed by his mate, shouting his name, in order to come out from the woods. In the end, I still don't know what to think and I still have few data to build a strong hypothesis. I would like to know your opinion, even if on such vague basis, and if you know any case of collaborationism possibly comparable with this story. Thank you indeed and, again, I apologize for the vagueness of this topic.
Hi Marco, This is a fascinating topic. You should not shy away from it at all. There are quite a few posts on the forum about collaborators/traitors/renegades etc. A couple of examples: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prisoners-war/44289-british-pow-collaborators.html http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/27589-suspect-823053-sapper-frederick-william-porter-royal-engineers.html The book "Footprints on the Sands of Time - RAF Bomber Command Prisoners of War in Germany 1939-1945" by Oliver Clutton-Brock has an entire chapter on aircrew traitors and collaborators. I will be watching this thread with interest. Regards, Dave
Hi Marco, This is a fascinating topic. You should not shy away from it at all. There are quite a few posts on the forum about collaborators/traitors/renegades etc. A couple of examples: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/prisoners-war/44289-british-pow-collaborators.html http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/27589-suspect-823053-sapper-frederick-william-porter-royal-engineers.html The book "Footprints on the Sands of Time - RAF Bomber Command Prisoners of War in Germany 1939-1945" by Oliver Clutton-Brock has an entire chapter on aircrew traitors and collaborators. I will be watching this thread with interest. Regards, Dave Thanks indeed Dave for your interest and suggestion. In effect, it was quite embarassing to discover such a story and not to have immediately a way to understand if it was absolutely true or not. Having to manage such a difficult search and, as I hope, to write a book, I have to use my greatest care with this problem...
Hi Marco, I think you have it correct here. You must treat the information with delicacy, even if you are 100% sure it is all factual. I have had a similar experience in regards to a POW held by the Japanese in 1944. He was suspected of collaboration with his captors, often removed from his cell for hours at a time, only to return looking more healthier and well fed than when he left. The Japanese used to put him into cells with new POW's and he used to ask all sorts of strange questions of the recent arrivals. The Allied prisoners were very mistrustful of him and were sure he was working for the Japanese. At one juncture they were considering dealing with him themselves, if you understand my meaning. However, at the end of the war it transpired that he was from a SOE background and had fed the enemy countless amounts of false information. As you can imagine I have come across many examples of where soldiers have made errors, mistakes or decisions which have potentially cost the lives of their comrades. For us as researchers it is one of the greatest responsibilities, whether to tell the naked truth, perhaps at the expense of upsetting families who have a settled viewpoint about their loved ones in WW2. It's a tough one my friend.
Hi Marco, I think you have it correct here. You must treat the information with delicacy, even if you are 100% sure it is all factual. I have had a similar experience in regards to a POW held by the Japanese in 1944. He was suspected of collaboration with his captors, often removed from his cell for hours at a time, only to return looking more healthier and well fed than when he left. The Japanese used to put him into cells with new POW's and he used to ask all sorts of strange questions of the recent arrivals. The Allied prisoners were very mistrustful of him and were sure he was working for the Japanese. At one juncture they were considering dealing with him themselves, if you understand my meaning. However, at the end of the war it transpired that he was from a SOE background and had fed the enemy countless amounts of false information. As you can imagine I have come across many examples of where soldiers have made errors, mistakes or decisions which have potentially cost the lives of their comrades. For us as researchers it is one of the greatest responsibilities, whether to tell the naked truth, perhaps at the expense of upsetting families who have a settled viewpoint about their loved ones in WW2. It's a tough one my friend. Thanks indeed, A very interesting story. That's exactly what I would like to avoid - to put the finger in a direction, to suppose something, and to be wrong. This night I thought that I may find a certain degree of certainty in this way. If this POW really betrayed his friend still at large, this probably led to a trial or at least to a denunciation. If I won't find the evidence of such a procedure, probably the betrayal never happened and it was only a great misunderstainding. Maybe due to the battle stress, to the panic of that moment, to the distance, etc. Of course I have no idea of the place I should look for such legal documents, but that's the beginning of a plan...
Hi Marco, I don't have anything to add, except to say thank you for posting this interesting thread. I will be following it closely.
Hi Marco, I don't have anything to add, except to say thank you for posting this interesting thread. I will be following it closely.
Hi Marco, I don't have anything to add, except to say thank you for posting this interesting thread. I will be following it closely. You're welcome, I thank you all for your assistance and help. This is not only a historical problem, for me, but a human or moral challenge. I only hope to be able, or lucky enough, to find more and to discover the truth - whatever.
Hi Marco A similar story to yours happened in the Village of Cardito about 5 miles East of Cassino, except the escaped British Soldier managed to get away but most of the villagers were shot There is a memorial on the mountain to these poor souls Regards Rotherfield
Hi Marco A similar story to yours happened in the Village of Cardito about 5 miles East of Cassino, except the escaped British Soldier managed to get away but most of the villagers were shot There is a memorial on the mountain to these poor souls Regards Rotherfield Hello Rotherfield, Thanks for your contribution, I was not aware of this tragic retaliation. Was it a supposed case of betrayal as the one I am working on?
Hi Marco I am not sure about the betrayal, I visit the area every year (this is my 22nd year) mainly around Monte Camino which is about 15 miles to the South of Cardito. I have spoken to some villagers where I stay (Rocca dEvandro) and they seem to think that it was a family fued because most if not all those shot by the German forces were from the same family, a tragic twist to the shooting is one of thsoe shot was a woman from Glasgow Scotland, she had met and married a villager who went back to Cardito taking her with him she was also shot whilst holding her baby in her arms and he small child standing next to her, all those shot were not discovered until the spring when the snow had melted nobody knows who the Germans were or what Regiment they belonged to, the story of the massacre is on the Forum somewhere if you ever get a chance to visit the area I can point you in the right direction, as an added piece to this story a chap from Canada who belongs to WW2Talk contacted me and I gave him directions how to get there he was related to the family that was shot. Regards Mike aka rotherfield
Hi Marco I am not sure about the betrayal, I visit the area every year (this is my 22nd year) mainly around Monte Camino which is about 15 miles to the South of Cardito. I have spoken to some villagers where I stay (Rocca dEvandro) and they seem to think that it was a family fued because most if not all those shot by the German forces were from the same family, a tragic twist to the shooting is one of thsoe shot was a woman from Glasgow Scotland, she had met and married a villager who went back to Cardito taking her with him she was also shot whilst holding her baby in her arms and he small child standing next to her, all those shot were not discovered until the spring when the snow had melted nobody knows who the Germans were or what Regiment they belonged to, the story of the massacre is on the Forum somewhere if you ever get a chance to visit the area I can point you in the right direction, as an added piece to this story a chap from Canada who belongs to WW2Talk contacted me and I gave him directions how to get there he was related to the family that was shot. Regards Mike aka rotherfield Thanks Mike, a sad story.
Marco, Good luck with this tricky situation. I think you have your head in the right place on this one. In my own research, l have picked this up on many occassions but not followed it through. I did not notice a reference to it but is there anything at all within the Liberation Questionnaires or Escape and Evasion Reports at Kew? They frequently refer to helpers and collaberationists, usually in some detail. Regards, Nick
Marco, Good luck with this tricky situation. I think you have your head in the right place on this one. In my own research, l have picked this up on many occassions but not followed it through. I did not notice a reference to it but is there anything at all within the Liberation Questionnaires or Escape and Evasion Reports at Kew? They frequently refer to helpers and collaberationists, usually in some detail. Regards, Nick Hello Nick, Thanks for your kind reply and suggestions. I already checked the availability of these reports at Kew, unfortunately the very few soldiers involved in this particular story didn't leave any document of this type. My only chance would be to check the presence of any trial or denounce but it would be difficult, since the supposed traitor was not British. At present, I think I have few options, concerning this chapter I am going to write. 1. To ignore the fact, and to remove the whole story from the book. 2. To deepen it as I can, and to let the reader to choose his or her best explanation.
Hi all, After several days of reflection, I decided to try to find the records of whatever possible trial, martial court or at least denunciation concerning this case. I would like to ask your kind suggestion on the best places to search - Kew? The problem is, the suspect traitor was not British. Thanks indeed for your help, Marco
