Am I right in assuming that the only close support tanks used in the Western Desert were the A9 & A10? We have dismissed the A13, and I have never heard or seen of either the A15MkI or MkII in that role.
David W As an ex Crew Member of a Tank I have no idea what you mean by calling Tanks by their numbers - we always used their NAMES i.e. Covenanter - Crusader - Grant - Honey - Valentine - Matilda - Sherman - Churchill et al…so if you could re translate your question - you MIGHT get a reasonable answer to your question as it is a fair assumption that we know what you are talking about... essentially close support Tanks to Infantry - not only in the desert were those formations listed in Independent Army Tank Bdes as opposed to those in an Armoured Bde as part of an Armoured Division…for example the 25th and 21st Tank bdes of mainly Churchill Tanks acted as Tank support to the 1st Canadian Infantry Division even as their 5th Canadian ARMOURED DIVISION had an Armoured Bde of Shermans within the Division - two different tasks of assault and pursuit Cheers
Tom. A9 = Cruiser tank MkI A10 = Cruiser tank MkIIA A13 = Cruiser tank MkIVA A15 = Crusader. Close support = fitted with 3.7" howitzer as opposed to 2 Pdr. Hope that helps. David.
Yeah but Tom , you served later in the war when tanks had names. Nothing wrong with what David put in his post. Those tanks were being used before you joined. I knew exactly what he meant & I wasn't in the war & have only read books on it.
I think you are both correct! My understanding is that there was a mix of numbers and names early in the War with the Matilda 1 and Matilda 2 being the first with names. It was only the early Cruiser tanks that just used numbers. Names became more widely used in Commonwealth forces because it is easier to use a name rather than potentially complicated number. Why, for example, say 'A34 Mark 1a' when you mean 'Comet'.........
My own particular tank was never referred to at the time as a Mk3 Stuart but always as a Honey http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart Did I mention that it had no turret ? Ron
Hi Ron, I'm into the Italian section of my father's diary now and there are more precise details of tanks in this section - including names (Two Able and Bruiser) he generally notes the problems with them as it was his job to repair them. There are several references to honeys, including this on 26 May near to Mount Cairo and Castrociello. "[SIZE=medium]One of our Honeys hit a pile of S mines and turned completely over, the crew of 4 losing their lives. "[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I'll be happy to let you read it when I've completed typing it up.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]June[/SIZE]
Did early cruisers ( A9; A10 and A13) have a name? http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/26858-markings-and-insignia-for-armour-in-the-bef/ As said :"Same war, but almost a different era."
In this thread evidence was produced of Crusader CS - serial numbers and unit allocations too: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/52888-crusader-tank-census-numbers/?hl=crusader Also, have you thought about Matilda and Valentine CS tanks - if not in name, at least in effort?
Mark. I was pondering upon Cruisers. In the Western Desert 8 RTR(at least) had Matilda C/S. Never ever seen a Valentine though.
I have many attributes David, reading minds is not one of them. :wink: You made no mention of 'cruisers only' in your initial post. Nevertheless, at the link offered, you will see evidence of Crusader CS in North Africa too.
Sorry, my omittion of "Cruisers only". Re the linked thread, is the info in the thumbnails? Because I can't open them.
Owen I should have assumed that by reading about Tanks in the desert - you would know much more than I did - like many others DAVID - a 3.7 Howitzer in a Crusader - sheesh… Cheers
According to Chamberlain & Ellis....... A9 = 3.7" A10 = 3.7" But Matilda = 3" & Crusader = 3" Andreas is correct & I have learnt something new today! What was the difference between the two guns and their H.E ammo please. (I know it was mainly smoke they carried).
David, you should take a look at the greatly extended CS threads on here where I chased down a lot more than the few queries we both started out with years ago now! The 3.7" howitzer on the early cruisers seems to have been a Vickers' propreitary design....but the 3" howitzer is almost transparent to the historical record. It's first recognised fitment seems actually to have been the Churchill MkI hull gun...where it came from, who designed it etc. has been lost to time. There was no Valentine CS tank manufactured... But in the Antipodes, New Zealand were sent some Matilda CS to use alongside their Valentines...so they took the howitzers out of them and managed to fit them into Valentines to give them an all-Valentine force to prevent any spares' issues. THEN they sold the surplus Matildas to the Australians There is also some debate on the smoke vs HE loads. We know from Gerry Chester that the smoke component of the Churchill MkI's loadout for the hull gun was a moveable feast...sometimes more, sometimes less depending on requirements....but in the Churchill MkI manual it specifies ALL H.E. (The trunions/mounts of the 2pdr and the 3" howitzer were apparently identical; elsewhere during the war, hull guns and turret 2pdrs on Churchill MkIs were swapped about...) It looks as if the 3.7" howitzer fired the same rounds as the WWI era 3.7" mountain howitzer - but details for the 3" ordnance are not available
I did get hold of a few AFV returns for North Africa a few years back, just snapshots of particular periods beginning early 1942 or so. I've had a quick look but none of them show CS tanks as separate entries, which is the case for the later NWE ones I have. That doesn't mean they didn't have CS tanks of course, but if they did then GHQ don't seem to have been bothered about them being reported separately. The ME WE for an Armd Regt (Aug42 or so) did refer to CS Crusaders in the multiple versions detailed, and assumed the usual allocation of two for Sqn HQs when CS tanks where authorised. Gary
There definitely seem to have been CS Crusader tanks with 2 Armoured Brigade once it was equipped in the ME. The below from the WD of 9 Lancers. All the best Andreas
