Civilian War Dead of Jersey, Channel Isles - Non Commemorated By The CWGC

Gentelmen, as you say the evidence for the people is freely available. Have you thought why they are not on the CWWG roll? Maybe because those in the Island do not feel it approprite? I do not wish to start my sojourn of the Forum with an unholy row, but there many such as Micheal Ginnis who have spent thier lives making sure those from the Island are not forgotten. The memorials are where they should be, remembeed by the people of the island from which they came.
Drew part of the point is those from the Island's are not British, the descent is actaully Nordic.

 

Drew, part of the point is those from the island's are not British, the descent is actually Nordic. as you say Gentelman, the eveidence is clear for the deaths of those from the Island in the extermination camps, and is suitably remebered elsewhere. Many such as Micheal Ginnis have devoted their lives to make sure they aren't forgotten. Has it occured to you that despite all thsi the dead are not on the CWWG roll, because those in the Island do not consider it approporiate> I do not wish to start my sojourn on teh forum with an ungholy row, but teh memeorials are where they should be, on the Island, and they are remebered by those who live there.

 

Just to back up what Drew has said Tony, the CWG does not just commemorate British and as an Irishman I can certainly testfy that I and my ancestors are most definitely not British!!! However Irishmen are mentioned there too. It is good that you are making us aware of the sensitivities Tony, however I would be surprised if Chris meant anything untoward by his actions. I am not of course speaking for him (Him being well capable of this). Anyways welcome to the forums

 

If you care to check the CWGC Civilian Roll Of Honour then you will see that many of those civilians from the Channel Islands are already commemorated by the CWGC.

Taking the names from the Occupation Memorial some are commemorated by CWGC

Name DIMERY, ARTHURInitials:ANationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:51Date of Death:04/04/1944Additional information:at Laufen.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:FOX, GEORGE JAMESInitials:G JNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:49Date of Death:11/03/1945Additional information:Son of George and Alice Fox; husband of Cecilia Mary Fox. Died at Naumberg, Saale.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:GOULD, MAURICE JAYInitials:M JNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:19Date of Death:01/10/1943Additional information:Of St. Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands. Died at Wittlich.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:HOUILLEBECQ, JAMES EDWARDInitials:J ENationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:17Date of Death:20/01/1945Additional information of 14 Trinity Road, St. Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands. Died at Neuengamme Concentration Camp.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:OGIER, LEONCE L'HERMITTEInitials:L LNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:62Date of Death:01/08/1943Additional information:Husband of Emma Lilian Ogier, of 15 Netherby Court, Beaumont, st Peter Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands. Died at Ulm.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:PAGE, FREDERICK WILLIAMInitials:F WNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:44Date of Death:04/03/1945Additional information of Corisandi, Tower Road, St. Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands. Husband of N. W. Page. Died at Naumberg, Saale.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:PAISNEL, EMILEInitials:ENationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:61Date of Death:29/08/1944Additional information:at Naumberg, Saale.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

Name:QUEREE, CLIFFORD BONDInitials:C BNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:38Date of Death:01/05/1945Additional information:Son of the late Charles and Virginia Bond; husband of Marjory G. Queree. Died at Naumberg, Saale.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:GERMANY

So someone in authority submitted these names, but not the others. All that im doing is ensuring that these people get their due recognition.

With regard to the CWGC Charter for the Civilian War Dead of World War 2 the criteria is that they must have been at the time of their death under the protection of King George VI & the death must have been due to or caused by enemy action. They of course come from the countries that was part of the Commonwealth at that time & from several nations that were not. For example

Name:LOEBENSTEIN, HERTHAInitials:HNationality:United KingdomRank:CivilianRegiment/Service:Civilian War DeadAge:20Date of Death:13/09/1940Additional information:German refugee; of 72 Half Moon Lane. Daughter of Charles Loebenstein, of Hanau, Main, Germany. Injured 12 September 1940, at 72 Half Moon Lane; died at Dulwich Hospital.Casualty Type:Civilian War DeadReporting Authority:CAMBERWELL, METROPOLITAN BOROUGH

If you are asking me not to submit the names im afraid you are too late as I have already done it. Also submitted were several other British subjects who died in German Camps who were listed in the same Foreign Office document.

Unfortunately Frank Le Villio's case is unlikely to succeed due to the fact that there is no documentary link between his cause of death & his incarcartion in Belsen.

 

Just to back up what Drew has said Tony, the CWG does not just commemorate British and as an Irishman I can certainly testfy that I and my ancestors are most definitely not British!!! However Irishmen are mentioned there too. It is good that you are making us aware of the sensitivities Tony, however I would be surprised if Chris meant anything untoward by his actions. I am not of course speaking for him (Him being well capable of this). Anyways welcome to the forums

Probably the most famous case of a non British being commemorated by CWGC is

Name:LASSEN, ANDERS FREDERICK EMIL V. SCHAUInitials:A F E V SNationality:United KingdomRank:MajorRegiment/Service:Special Boat Service, S.A.S. Regiment, A.A.C.Age:24Date of Death:09/04/1945Service No:234907Awards:V C, M C and 2 BarsAdditional information:Son of Emil Victor Schau Lassen and Suzanne Maria Signe Lassen, of Nyhavn, Copenhagen, Denmark.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:II, E, 11.Cemetery:ARGENTA GAP WAR CEMETERYCitation:The London Gazette of 4th September, 1945, gives the following particulars: In Italy, on the night of 8th/9th April, 1945, Major Lassen was ordered to take out a patrol and raid the north shore of Lake Comacchio. His task was to cause casualties, capture prisoners and give the impression of a major landing. The patrol was challenged and came under machine-gun fire. Major Lassen himself attacked with grenades and silenced two enemy posts, capturing two prisoners and killing several Germans. The patrol had suffered casualties and was still under fire. Major Lassen moved forward and flung more grenades into a third enemy position, calling upon the enemy to surrender. He was then hit and mortally wounded, but whilst falling he flung a grenade, wounding more of the enemy and enabling his patrol to capture this last position. Finally, he refused to be evacuated lest he should impede the withdrawal and endanger further lives. His high sense of devotion to duty and the esteem in which he was held by the men he led, added to his own magnificent courage, enabled Major Lassen to carry out with complete success all the tasks he had been given.

Of course the number of Irish citizens who served with the British Forces & Merchant Navy during WW2 will probably never really be known, but must run into tens of thousands. It is us the British who must be eternally grateful for this contribution to the war effort

 

Yes, but they died in UK or in service. Whilst I do not doubt the integrity of anyone here, please consider.Those who died in the extermination camps and are commemrated on the Light house memorial on the New North Quay of St Helier harbour, the last place their feet touched the soil of their home, are considered special in the Island. They are not forgotten, they are honuored by the community from which they were taken, by the community, in a manner considered appropriate by the community. It is no feat of reserch to find information, the Jersey Holocaust memeorial site, Channel Island Occupation Socrty, States of Jersey Archive, Societtie Jerriase, or ask any primary school child. Have you considered that despite all this, those on the Island do not consider it appropriate that they be remembered on what many still consider to be a Forign roll of honour? Your unilatteral presentation to CWG, especially by an outsider and the implication that no one in the Island cares enough to do it themslves will cause severe hurt. « Previous articles

 

Tony

a. did you not read post 25 - many of those on the lighthouse memorial are already commemorated by the CWGC so why not the others

b. I do not know what Channel Islanders you are talking about but most that I know (yes I do know quite a few) are proud to call themselves British

c. Every British subject who died due to enemy action is entitled to commemoration by the CWGC. If the local authorities wont do it then I will

I have made no implication what so ever that the Islanders dont care; however when I started my research into the forgotten dead of both conflicts I made a vow that I would not be deflected no matter what the objections.

I will contacting the Jersey Press in due course to inform them of my findings

 

c. Every British subject who died due to enemy action is entitled to commemoration by the CWGC. If the local authorities wont do it then I will

I have made no implication what so ever that the Islanders dont care; however when I started my research into the forgotten dead of both conflicts I made a vow that I would not be deflected no matter what the objections.


Good Effort Chris !

 

Well Done Chris!

 

Yes, but they died in UK or in service. Whilst I do not doubt the integrity of anyone here, please consider.Those who died in the extermination camps and are commemrated on the Light house memorial on the New North Quay of St Helier harbour, the last place their feet touched the soil of their home, are considered special in the Island. They are not forgotten, they are honuored by the community from which they were taken, by the community, in a manner considered appropriate by the community. It is no feat of reserch to find information, the Jersey Holocaust memeorial site, Channel Island Occupation Socrty, States of Jersey Archive, Societtie Jerriase, or ask any primary school child. Have you considered that despite all this, those on the Island do not consider it appropriate that they be remembered on what many still consider to be a Forign roll of honour? Your unilatteral presentation to CWG, especially by an outsider and the implication that no one in the Island cares enough to do it themslves will cause severe hurt. « Previous articles

With regard to link you have given here there is a letter from Barrie Bertram (who I know & have assisted him with Great War research) requesting the Jersey Government to add these people to the CWGC Roll of Honour; he has informed me that it has fallen on deaf ears.

 

For those who offered me their moral support in this matter please accept my thanks. It means a lot to me

 

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If I may direct you all to the link above some of the Channel Islanders have now been accepted by the CWGC

 

Well Done Chris.....Just don't tell that chap who was on here a while back-He may need a Paramedic when he finds out !

Once again Well Done.

Andy

 

Canon Clifford Cohu has now been accepted as well

 

It appears there is a film coming out about Louisa Gould