city of manchester ss

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by ivor neville, Jun 24, 2010.

  1. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    HUGH.
    thanks very much for info as a gunner he was army! would he be on crews agreement?.

    Yes, all crew and military gunners signed the ship's Articles coming under the Master of the vessel.

    i understand there was a army unit set up to man the guns on merchant ships called the maritime royal artillery i wonder if he could have served in that.

    Yes, I imagine he was Maritime Royal Artillery. DEMS were made up of RN/RM gunners, Maritime Royal Artillery gunners and there were also a few gunners from other Army regiments.

    DEMS stands for Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships.
    DAMS stands for Defensively Armed Merchant Ships which was the terminology used during the Great War.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  2. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Courtesy of Billy McGee at Mercantile Marine Forum.

    Tower Hill

    ROBERTS, Apprentice, GUY SMITH, S.S. City of Manchester (Liverpool). Merchant Navy. 28th February 1942. Age 21. Son of Richard Hawkins Roberts and Alice Maud Roberts, of Ainsdale, Southport, Lancashire.

    TAWS, Chief Officer, STEPHEN CORNER STEPHENSON, S.S. City of Manchester (Liverpool). Merchant Navy. 3rd March 1942. Age 44. Husband of A. H. Taws, of Houston, Renfrewshire. Master Mariner, Merchant Navy

    Bombay/Chittagong

    ALI AZAM, Seaman, S.S. City of Manchester (Liverpool), Indian Merchant Navy. 28 February 1942. Age 39.

    Buried Jakarta War Cemetery

    BURNHAM, Quartermaster, ERNEST, S.S. City of Manchester (Liverpool). Merchant Navy. 24th May 1945. Age 62.

    Both Roberts & Taws are recorded as dying on the USS Tulsa from injuries sustained in the attack. Roberts is recorded as being buried ashore, but I can't decipher the handwriting to show where. Burnham is recorded in the August 1946 DASR having died as a prisoner of war at Batavia, by an unknown cause.

    This would suggest to me any other PoW's possibly taken survived the war.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  3. ivor neville

    ivor neville Junior Member

    thanks Enes but the photo on shipnastalga is a different boat it is the ss city of Manchester but built in 1950 the one i am looking for was built in1935.
    regards Ivor neville
     
  4. ivor neville

    ivor neville Junior Member

    thanks Kevin & Hugh.i understand what i am looking for a bit better now!
    regards ivor neville
     
  5. mick_power2@hotmail.com

    mick_power2@hotmail.com Junior Member

    Hi Everyone,
    I read with interest about the survivors of this ship.I have a document stating that HMS Stronghold had the survivors of the City of Manchester on board and transferred them to the Zaandam. I remember my father saying someing about the Stonghold have 100 extra people on board but never elaborated on it. After that transfer the Stronghold escorted the Zaandam towards Australia however they were spotted by the Japs and were chased down. The Stronghold was sunk and only about 50 or so got off and were in Makassar for the remainder of the war.
     
  6. Moss Trooper

    Moss Trooper New Member

    Hello everyone,
    I'm a late-comer to this thread and new to the site. I'm very interested in the story of the SS City of Manchester as I had a relative on board who was captured by the Japanese and spent over 3 1/2 years as a PoW in the Dutch East Indies. His name was Bernard Egbert Berntsen. He was an Engineer on the ship. I have his Index Card from Kew, which only records the last 15 months of his captivity. It shows Java as the place of capture and two camps where he was held - the main camp at Batavia and Malay PoW camp at Singapore. A source in Japan tells me that the lack of records for the first part of his captivity may mean he was held by the Japanese Navy at Makassar on Celebes Island. The previous post interests me very much and I would love to know more. Any information would be very much appreciated. Very best regards........Allan White.
     
  7. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Just seen this thread and realised I have a postcard of SS City of Manchester.

    I don't know if it is the right vessel as it is undated, but it was amongst several Ellerman Line ship postcards my Grandfather had collected. He was RN before and during WW1 and worked for the Post Office in London throughout WW2 so the dates could be right. City of Manchester.jpg
     
  8. Reid

    Reid Historian & Architectural Photographer

    You might get lucky with his service record - my grandfather was also a DEMS gunner, and his record shows every ship served on.

    Makes for interesting reading, and research as well (started in 1982 and still finding information!!!); it gets rather addictive - maybe I need to find a WW2RA group to keep me on the straight and narrow. ;)

    This site is a mine of information on convoys: http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html - great for tracking ship movements.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Welcome Allan,

    Will have a detailed look at my files later tonight in the meantime see attached. Bernard Egbert Berntsen was a member of the MN crew. Do you have any records of service for him?

    For Reid, you are quite lucky to have your grandfather's MN ships documented, his Maritime Card has obviously survived - many havent. I also note he served on PELEUS in 1942. Two years later this ship was the subject of the only war crime against a U-boat commander (Eck) when he machine gunned the crew in the lifeboats. He was executed.

    For Mike L, not sure if that is the ship or not but I am sure about this one: http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20C/slides/City%20of%20Manchester-03.jpg CITY OF MANCHESTER was quite a modern looking ship for her time.
    Regards
    Hugh
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    R233379 BERNSTEN B E 31/07/1918 PORT STANLEY
    Here is his medal file held at Kew in piece BT 395/1/6772 it can be downloaded for £3.36.
    His Seaman's Pouch is held in piece BT 372/355/85 best obtained by visit to Kew.
    I don't expect there to be much if anything in his CRS 10 (service record from Jan 1941) but it should be here BT 382/119 if you wish to try and obtain it. Again, best obtained by visit to Kew.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  11. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hugh,

    The Ellerman ships certaily seem to be modern-looking and quite elegant designs too.

    The two photos seem to be of the same vessel to my eyes.

    The postcards I have show quite a few of the Line's vessels and they mostly seem to share quite a distinctive bow and superstructure but some deck and derrick arrangements vary between the ships.

    Is there a date for the Photoships image of City of Manchester?
     
  12. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello Mike,
    I can now confirm that your image is the 1950 built ship and mine is the 1935 built ship which was sunk in 1942.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  13. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    That's great Hugh, thanks.

    Looks like they must have built the 1950 ship to a near identical design - if it aint bust........
     
  14. Moss Trooper

    Moss Trooper New Member

    Many thanks everyone, in particular Hugh. Fantastic information! I have a couple of the documents you mentioned, but will chase the others in due course. Not easy for me to get to Kew as I live in the Fakland Islands, which is where my relative Bernard came from. Like many of our young men, he went to serve during the war. His brother went in to the Navy and was on HMS Exeter at the Battle of the River Plate. Both interest me immensely! Hoping to write up their stories for a local historical journal!
     
  15. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Merchants ships' armanent was manned by RN and RA, the ratio being about 60/40. Obviously RN included RM. Initially (machine gun dertachments) the army element was men of many regts, but I think they were all converted to RA as larger calibres were adopted.

    The Maritime Regts RA had shore elements based at various ports around the world including New York. These provided a base facility for men between ships. I assume there are War Diaries for these units.
     
  16. Reid

    Reid Historian & Architectural Photographer

    Hugh, how would I get his Maritime Card - that one has got me really stumped!! :D
    Thanks for the info on the Peleus too - I didn't know that story. Do you have a link to it at all?

    Cheers,
    Nanette
     
  17. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello Nanette,

    Firstly what you have is a transcript of his Maritime Card. As rule I usually advise people when applying for their relation's service records that they ask for a photocopy rather than the transcript, that way you can rule out any mistakes that may be made in the trancription. As I said previously many MRA DEMS gunners service records do not have a list of MN ships attached which makes researching them all the more difficult. This can be the same with Navy DEMS as well. There are other ways to find out but usually the name of a ship is required as a first step.

    Regarding the commander of PELEUS, have a look here: http://www.uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=18
    http://www.uboat.net/men/commanders/232.html

    http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3218.html

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  18. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Allan,

    I have a copy of a manifest for 'CITY OF MANCHESTER' arriving in New York, July 16th 1941. Bernard Berntsen is mentioned as a member of the crew.
    The ship was sunk in 1942 and consequently never returned to the UK. Her last crew agreement will be held at the National Archives, Kew within the1941 lists in piece BT 381/1608. If you would like the 1941 manifiest send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a copy - I cannot post it here as it is under copyright.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  19. Hughphilipmassey

    Hughphilipmassey New Member

    Dear colleagues,
    My father Adrian. Hugh Massey 1918-1995 was a radio officer on city of Manchester when she was torpedo in 1942. He talked of being rescued by the USS whipo will then being landed in the Dutch East Indies? I know he finished up in Frementle He also talked of being on the last vessel out of Singapore before it fell. Bare in mind these stories were told to me probably 55 years ago so I would appreciate any gaps /inaccuracies of memory

    With thanks in appreciation

    Hugh massey
     
  20. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Hello Hugh,

    There are records for your dad at the National Archives Kew, do you have them, if not, I can easily point you to the file references?

    I have a crew manifest for CITY OF MANCHESTER and your dad is shown on it.

    24th Feb 1943 I have him on FORT ANNE as 2nd R/O.
    17th May 1943 I have him on CLAN MATHESON as 2nd R/O.
    28th Jan 1945 I have him on the French SAINTONGE as 2nd R/O.
    20th Mar 1945 again on SAINTONGE as 2nd R/O.
    12th May 1945 again on SAINTONGE as 2nd R/O.

    If you have his Discharge Book all his voyages should be listed but if you do not have it then recourse to Kew is advised to obtain his CRS 10 which, if it has survived, will detail all of his ships from Jan 1941. I would guess he first went to see late 1940 or early 1941.

    Hope that helps and please feel free to ask any questions.

    Regards
    Hugh
     

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