Channel Islands Occupation/Raid/Dieppe alternative/etc..

The Channel Islands were Occupied with some 30/40,000 German Soldiers including one re-inforced Infantry Division and One AA Brigade.

A direct order to Von Rundstedt from Hitler stopped him from placing the majority on the French mainland to help defend against the inevitable invasion.

Not to forget the vast amounts of slave labour from across Europe that were billeted on the islands to build defences.

I think such a vast use of resources was wasted on the Channel Islands for what I can only see as a minor propaganda win for the Germans. I think they would have been of far more use on the French coast as Von Rundstedt wished.

Any thoughts?

 

Bumpty Bump

 

Drew

complete waste of time & effort - the Allies never had any plans to retake the Channel Islands until a German surrender in any case - following D Day the Germans would have been better off releasing the Channel Islands Garrison for service in Normandy - however my reckoning is that they would have also evacuated the civil population as well to who knows what fate

Chris

 

the Allies never had any plans to retake the Channel Islands


Sorry Chrisharley9, but you are wrong...

There was already a plan even worked out in detail in 1943, known as operation Condor... with the object to capture AND OLD the island of Jersey in july 1943 (to start with) ! One Parachute brigade was involved, two commando's, one armoured regiment and 6 infantry battalions incl RE and Ack Ack support....

 

Cheers chaps.....I just can't see the point of view from the Germans side. Ok a small propaganda victory but thats about it.

All those men and the slave labour would have been used better on the mainland in my opinion.

Or am I missing something ?

 

Sorry Chrisharley9, but you are wrong...

There was already a plan even worked out in detail in 1943, known as operation Condor... with the object to capture AND OLD the island of Jersey in july 1943 (to start with) ! One Parachute brigade was involved, two commando's, one armoured regiment and 6 infantry battalions incl RE and Ack Ack support....

Operation "Condor", the invasion of Jersey, was devised by Mountbatten whilst he was Chief of Combined Operations who sought to convince the Chiefs of Staff and Churchill that somehow it would be advantangeous as a parallel operation with the invasion of Sicily.

Mountbatten's creativity of operations also produced "Concertina", "Coverlet" and along with with "Condor" under the collective operations code of "Constellation" and was the intention to capture one or more of the Channel Islands.Any move towards the capture of the Channel Islands would give the game away as regards any intention to invade France by the Cherbourg peninsula.Further with the background of Mountbatten's involvement with the Dieppe farce, "Condor" was looked on with rejection for it could have been a second Dieppe.Moreover, "Condor" would have required the operational use of over 30 fighter squadrons and nearly 40 bomber squadrons which would have taken resources away from operations against more important targets on the European mainland.Albeit, the operation was planned to cover 5 days but, these were valuable days in the preparation and ongoing efforts to liberate western Europe.

As it was, a great deal of effort was invested by the Germans in encompassing the Channel Islands within the Atlantic Wall together with the act of stationing a division of troops for its defence.Just as the Channel Islands were recognised as being of no strategic value on the withdrawal from France by British forces they were recognised as such for a re-entry by Allied forces in 1944.Leaving the Channel Islands to "wither on the vine" reduced the casualty lists and its defenders had no bearing on the way the war progressed.(The defenders tried to influence things as they saw it, by a commando raid on the port of Granville which at the time had been put into use by the Allies as supply port after the Cherbourg peninsula was cleared of German forces)

 

What I should have said that there was no serious plan to take the Channel Islands that would have been allowed to interfer with Overlord

Chris

 

Afternoon all,

I found the attached photo whilst perusing the historic buildings archive boxes at the English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre in Swindon the other week. It's been a while seen I have seen it, but, to the best of my recollection, this photo is not included in those in the lovely After The Batte publication.

Details:

• Temporary graveyard for German war dead in the St Saviour parish churchyard on Jersey.
• Note says graves had been removed by 1960.
• I can only make out two names - Obergr. E Doege and Illegible J Edlinger.
• Graves are marked with CWGC monogram.

Can anybody out there confirm/deny that these are not in the ATB book, and would anybody know what happened to the remains?

Apologies for the quality of the photos...

Ta

CS

 

Afternoon all,

I found the attached photo whilst perusing the historic buildings archive boxes at the English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre in Swindon the other week. It's been a while seen I have seen it, but, to the best of my recollection, this photo is not included in those in the lovely After The Batte publication.


Details:

• Temporary graveyard for German war dead in the St Saviour parish churchyard on Jersey.
• Note says graves had been removed by 1960.
• I can only make out two names - Obergr. E Doege and Illegible J Edlinger.
• Graves are marked with CWGC monogram.

Can anybody out there confirm/deny that these are not in the ATB book, and would anybody know what happened to the remains?

Apologies for the quality of the photos...

Ta

CS


The dead of the Third Reich were buried in what the Germans would intend to be, permanent cemeteries.This happened no matter where the Germans ventured and was built on the basis of that the Germans would be staying. For instance I have seen photographs of elaborate graves in a Jersey civilian cemetery.However things were to change after the war when occupied countries wished to have the graves concentrated or removed from their territory.(The Russians merely desecrated German graves and until the fall of the Soviet Union, these graves were lost.) It was difficult to return the remains of German dead to their homelands and consequently,after agreements were drawn up with the French and West German government in 1956, a start was made by the German War Graves Commission to construct concentrated German military cemeteries which were to be inaugurated from the early 1960s.

One such case was the Channel Islands which, in 1961, had all its German war dead removed to the new concentrated Mont de Huisnes Ossuary near to Le Mont St Michel. The exception being, for some unknown reason,that the German dead interred in the Fort George military cemetery just outside St Peter's Port on Guernsey were left in their original resting place.

The Mont de Huisnes Ossuary also contains reinterred German dead from individual graves from the French Departments,Morbihan,Ille et Villaine, Mayenne,Sarth,Loire et Cher,Vienne and Indre.

 

Thank you very much, Harry, that is very full and useful reply!

CS

 

The German War Dead were left at Fort George for the simple reason that this was already a formal military cemetery already under the care of the CWGC

Chris

 

Fair enough. Presumably the CWGC had established the cemetery in the inter-war years?

 

Fort George was the established military cemetery for Guernsey prior to the Great War - will have to dig out my photos from the 80s when I visited there last

Chris

 

Fort George was the established military cemetery for Guernsey prior to the Great War - will have to dig out my photos from the 80s when I visited there last

Chris

Thanks, Chris.

CS

 

Harry Ree
One such case was the Channel Islands which, in 1961, had all its German war dead removed to the new concentrated Mont de Huisnes Ossuary near to Le Mont St Michel. The exception being, for some unknown reason,that the German dead interred in the Fort George military cemetery just outside St Peter's Port on Guernsey were left in their original resting place.

It is a cold and chilling sort of place , it just sems to lack soul and warmth.

 

Interesting pics CS, sounds like a good place for a rummage.

On whether or not there was ever really an intention to retake the Channel Islands I think of the Churchill quote prominently displayed (perhaps provocatively, though they can prove it's source) at the War Tunnels museum:

"Let 'em starve. No fighting. They can rot at their leisure."

I can't see Mountbatten ever having got much genuine support for 'Condor' in the face of that. Even though Churchill seemed to be often fond of his suggestions

Looking for Channel Island references from Alanbrooke's diaries:
"27/9/44 - Finally a cabinet at 6pm at which Winston wanted to discuss the desirability or otherwise of responding to German requests to send food for the British population in the Channel Islands. Decided not to send any and to reply to Germans that it was their duty to keep population reasonably fed or to surrender if they were unable to do so." *

"7/11/44 - We spent hours discussing desirability of sending some food to Holland, Norway and the Channel Islands, and never arrived at any very decisive results"

That's it as far as the published variant is concerned. He usually has something to say about Mountbatten or Combined Arms schemes that he thinks worthy of comment, if and when they reached him. It would perhaps be a fair presumption that he lumped this one in with his usual slight caution about 'Dickie' and his ideas?

Looks like the Jersey Tunnels site has been upgraded:
JWTlanding
Some good stuff on there now, if a bit 'Flashy' (not unlike the museum itself ).

* Edit: I see the Churchill 'starve' quote is from notes taken on the same day as the first Alanbrooke quote:
Light shines on Jersey's wartime tunnels | UK news | The Guardian

The best thing about the EH NMR centre is the collection of air-photographs, very pleasing to look at landscapes of 60 or 70 years ago in great detail.

As you observe, the Islanders had a few very uncomfortable months in late 1944 and early 1945. Did Chruchill really expect human waves of unarmed civvies throwing themselves upon the bayonets of the Hun as they stormed ashore? Not quite the same as Nazi paratroopers descending from the skies over East Sussex, I suspect. I think the the Islanders knew they were on thier own and did not expect a liberation campagn anytime soon, and just got on with it in a phlegmatic fasion - it is a slightly funny place. Looking at the strategic location, it would have been crazy to try and liberate and then fortify/defend the islands before late 1944 anyway. JWT a bit 'modern' as you comment, but that may be where the bucks are as far as central funding and museum consultants are concerned.

 

Slightly off topic but found some great pictures in the Bunds Archives.

1.

England, channel islands Guernsey/jersey. - Four soldiers at a street corner before a business (" Edward - Charing CROSS Bazaar") standing, a soldier with bicycle.

2.

England, Guernsey in the English Channel. - Three soldiers with distance measuring equipment on a steep cliff at the coast.

3.

England, channel island Guernsey. - Castle Cornet

4.

England, channel island Guernsey. - Two soldiers being located in a ditch at the foot of stairs.

5.

Headlines: English channel islands, refuelling an airplane Specially information: English channel islands. - Refuelling an airplane on a field airport

 

I was always under the impression that Hitler's Commando Order was on the back of the St. Nazaire Raid but it was infact to do with a raid on the Channel Islands, Sark to be precise.

The Commando Order

Hitler's infamous Commando Order and the covering minute from German Army HQ. The order was a death sentence for any Commando participating in a raid who fell into the hands of German forces. There were strict controls over copying and retaining the order on file and above all order the was under "no circumstances to fall into enemy hands." This order was to be carried out whether the Commando's were captured in Civilian or Military clothing.

The Fuhrer SECRET
No. 003830/42g.Kdos.OWK/Wst F.H. Qu 18.10.1942
12 copies
Copy No.12.

1. For a long time now our opponents have been employing in their conduct of the war, methods which contravene the International Convention of Geneva. The members of the so-called Commandos behave in a particularly brutal and underhand manner; and it has been established that those units recruit criminals not only from their own country but even former convicts set free in enemy territories. From captured orders it emerges that they are instructed not only to tie up prisoners, but also to kill out-of-hand unarmed captives who they think might prove an encumbrance to them, or hinder them in successfully carrying out their aims. Orders have indeed been found in which the killing of prisoners has positively been demanded of them.

2. In this connection it has already been notified in an Appendix to Army Orders of 7.10.1942. that in future, Germany will adopt the same methods against these Sabotage units of the British and their Allies; i.e. that, whenever they appear, they shall be ruthlessly destroyed by the German troops.

3. I order, therefore:-
From now on all men operating against German troops in so-called Commando raids in Europe or in Africa, are to be annihilated to the last man. This is to be carried out whether they be soldiers in uniform, or saboteurs, with or without arms; and whether fighting or seeking to escape; and it is equally immaterial whether they come into action from Ships and Aircraft, or whether they land by parachute. Even if these individuals on discovery make obvious their intention of giving themselves up as prisoners, no pardon is on any account to be given. On this matter a report is to be made on each case to Headquarters for the information of Higher Command.

4. Should individual members of these Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs etc., fall into the hands of the Armed Forces through any means - as, for example, through the Police in one of the Occupied Territories - they are to be instantly handed over to the S.D.
To hold them in military custody - for example in P.O.W. Camps, etc., - even if only as a temporary measure, is strictly forbidden.

5. This order does not apply to the treatment of those enemy soldiers who are taken prisoner or give themselves up in open battle, in the course of normal operations, large scale attacks; or in major assault landings or airborne operations. Neither does it apply to those who fall into our hands after a sea fight, nor to those enemy soldiers who, after air battle, seek to save their lives by parachute.

6. I will hold all Commanders and Officers responsible under Military Law for any omission to carry out this order, whether by failure in their duty to instruct their units accordingly, or if they themselves act contrary to it.

(Signed) Hitler




HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY SECRET
No. 551781/42G.K. Chefs W.F.St/Qu. F.H. Qu. 19/10/42
22 Copies
Copy No.21.

The enclosed Order from the Fuhrer is forwarded in connection with destruction of enemy Terror and Sabotage-troops.

This order is intended for Commanders only and is in no circumstances to fall into Enemy hands.

Further distribution by receiving Headquarters is to be most strictly limited.
The Headquarters mentioned in the Distribution list are responsible that all parts of the Order, or extracts taken from it, which are issued are again withdrawn and, together with this copy, destroyed.

Chief of Staff of the Army

(Signed) JODL


Sourced from Combined Ops.com

 

Lt. Freddie Bourne was part of Small Scale Raiding Force (SSRF) that landed on Sark, this operation led to the Commando Order being put into place.

This raid was to have very serious, unforeseen consequences for all future 'special forces' operations in enemy held territory. The raiding party landed successfully, evaded a German patrol and broke into a house belonging to a Mrs Pittard. She provided invaluable intelligence including the whereabouts of the enemy garrison - an annex of the Dixcart Hotel. The Commandos killed the guard posted outside the building and stormed in. The five soldiers billeted there were taken prisoner but, as they were being escorted to the beach, they began to struggle and scream for help. Unable to quickly pacify them, and fearful of being discovered, the prisoners were shot 'regrettably' still with their hands tied. As a result Hitler ordered that any British Commandos captured armed or unarmed, in or out of uniform, should be executed with no exceptions.

In all Bourne and his crew in MTB 344 took part in 17 raids off the north coast of France and the Channel Islands. He left 344 in May 1943 on appointment to Flotilla 11 at Felixstowe. In January 1943 the SSRF raids were coordinated by an Auxiliary Operations Group and independent raids in the English Channel ceased. SSRF was later disbanded and for his part in their operations Bourne was awarded the DSC.


Quote from Combined Ops.com