Book Review 'Catch That Tiger' - Churchill's secret order that prompted the most dangerous mission of WW2

Has the crew of 131 ever been identified?

 

According to the book, page 6, on 20 April 1942 Hitler asks, referring to Tiger tanks, "How soon can we have them?" to which Jodl replies "As soon as you confirm the order".

Now to reality: in 1937 the Waffenhampt (Ordnance Department) entrusted Henschel und Sohn with the development of a heavy breakthrough tank, about 50% heavier than the Panzer Kpfw IV, and which would be protected by 50 mm armour.

On 9 September 1938, Waffenhampt authorised Henschel to start work on the proposal and early in 1940 the first trials took place and a test series of eight were ordered. From 1941 to 1942 two prototypes (VK3001, VK3601) were made and discarded

The order for the Tiger (Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf E - VK4501) was issued on 26 May 1941. Henschel were to develop the chassis and Krupp the turret. Production was planned to start in July 1942 with 285 to be completed by 12 May 1943.

Incidentally, the weight was 57 tons, not 60. However, a few early examples did have a snorkel tube attached which allowed the Tiger to wade to a depth of 13 feet. This was discarded on later models, limiting wading to 4 feet.

(Source: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle)

 

Peter, I hope your separate quote was not in Chamberlain & Doyle's

Here is another quote, this time from Tiger Tanks at War, M.Green & J.Brown, quite colourful authors.

View attachment 82502

And as we were speaking of Doyle, here's from T.Jentz & H.Doyle's Tiger Tanks - VK45.02 to Tiger II, to show that there was more to a decision process than purported blustering.

View attachment 82503

 

Yes, Adam, you are right - for a fully detailed account. I was merely pointing out the long long process of development and production of the Tiger, starting in 1937, rather than the implied quick decision on a whim on 20 April '42.

 

When that shot bounced down onto the roof over the heads of the driver and mg gunner it must have 'rung a few bells'!

 

A general comment:

Final judgment on the accuracy, fairness etc of this particular book will have to wait for the review copy, as Von P says. Yet from what I have read here so far it seems to reflect a general tendency in WWII books, both non-fiction and fiction. Authors often prefer glamorous, secret-service and commando type stories with big names in them (Churchill, Hitler, Rommel, Patton, etc) to stories of the humdrum, humble (but war-winning) work of "ordinary" units and ordinary, non-famous blokes. I suspect that is how publishers look at the manuscripts that cross their desks, at any rate.

 

TTH
I would go along with your thinking about the "celebrity" aspect of both Authors and Publishers as it would have crossed someones mind that 48th RTR - Who ? - of 21st ATB-another - who ? - and can we change that to 11th Hussars of 7th Armoured Desert rats ....
well no not really .....but we can come up with a Churchill 0rder for a Commando raid - much more exciting...and profitable.....!
Bit like the account of my Troop Commanders death - who was alleged to have been
killed when a German in a slit trench in front of his Tank stood up and knocked out the Tank with his Faustpatrone and burned the crew to a crisp ... way more exciting than what actually happened and the rest of the crew lasted until old age ....! That's why I have grave reservations about Authors - who never heard a shot fired .....

Cheers
Cheers

 

From the book's synopsis posted at JohnXBlakeXPublishing...

The morale boost to the Allies was such that both Churchill and King George VI flew to Tunis to examine the Tiger first hand.
This is simply not the case. The Tiger was captured on 21 April 1943. Unless George VI, in addition to the Royal Touch, was prescient his visit to North Africa had nothing to do with a German tank. Planning for his visit took place in March as Alanbrooke's diary makes clear:25 March 1943

... After lunch Alexander Hardinge [the King's private secretary] came to see me to discuss [the] King's proposed visit to North Africa as soon as Tunisia has been cleared. King apparently keen to go out and it seems a very good moment for him.
None of the viewers of tank 131 seemed to have placed much importance on it, in fact Alanbrooke apparently found a villa where he had lunch more remarkable than he did the tank.

From Alanbrooke's diaries:2 June 1943
Left camp at 9.00 am and proceeded to see 34th USA Div gunners. From there to Tunis where we [i.e., Churchill, Alanbrooke, and entourage] examined a Mark VI (Tiger) German Tank. Most interesting. From there we went on to see more of 46th Div, then 4th Div and finally 6th Armoured, and 201st Guards Bde. Keightley gave us an explanation on the ground of the action of his Division (6th Armoured) at Hammam-Lif, most interesting with actual details of the positions held by the enemy and method by which they were defeated. We then went on to lunch with Coningham (RAF) in a wonderful villa owned by a Mr Germain, a Spaniard. Rumour says that Mrs Simpson used to go there with Mr Simpson! A most unattractive house in many ways, with black marble baths, etc. Here we had an excellent lunch and then went on to Gromballa aerodrome where we took off for Algiers. ...
3 June 1943
[In Algiers] PM sent for me during breakfast and told me he was now considering starting tomorrow! It was only yesterday that we had settled that Alexander and I should start back with Anthony Eden on Friday (4th) whilst PM stopped on to greet the next visitor here [the King]. However, whilst we were discussing the question he began to swing towards leaving on Saturday instead!

In Road to Victory: Winston Churchill 1941-1945, page 424, Martin Gilbert records Churchill's visit to Tunisia, flying from Algiers on 1 June. In a very busy schedule.:On June 2 Churchill travelled through much of of the Tunis battle area, examining a German tank, and once more addressing the troops. Flying back from Tunis to Algiers, he took the controls of the York for a while, 'and gave us', Brooke noted, 'somewhat of a swaying passage for a bit'.

 

Another model another test. Pz Kw III Chasis No 68026 and 68431 (and others)- School of Tank Technology Egham. September 1942.


http://www.scribd.com/haraoi_conal/d/32918665-Preliminary-Report-No-5-PzKw-III-September-1942



Report No 19 from Egham is for the Tiger - unfortunately I have lost track of it (no pun intended!)

 

I went to Waterstones today and spent ten minutes flicking through some of Catch that Tiger.

There is no citation in the text for any of the chapters I found, making it impossible to fact check the original diary. The most ridiculous parts I read were of Tiger 131's unnamed crew deciding to withdraw and conversing, naturally total fabrication. Its in a fairly large print format as well which seems far, far more suited for teen readership than any substantial work.

Writing in a 'docu-drama' style seemed passable, but the accuracy seemed very wanting...

I read the key part of the capture and was left thoroughly unimpressed really. It is really Hollywood-history from what I read sadly.

 

Best thing to come out of this thread!

Many thanks.

All the best

Andreas

 

I met Gerry Chester today at the National Archives busy pulling file after file on Panzer 131. I'm sure he'll be along soon to post what he found

 

Drew

So Gerry is back in town once more pulling files - then it's time for some to head for the shelters - no doubt we will have verse and chapter of the truth of PzMkVI from the 48th War Diary.......

Bash on Gerry

Cheers

 

I slipped one in as well, WO 194/1115, "Preliminary Report on Pz. Kw. VI (MODEL 'H') (Ex North Africa)"

Mostly technical stuff about the Tiger but the subject for the report was 131.

On a quick scan through all it says specifically about 131 is regarding its condition.
Examined at Chobham,

D.T.D Project No. 3016,

November 1943

Examiner: Major A. D. Lidderdale, A.M.I.Mech.E., R.E.M.E.

General Specification:
Type: Pz. Kpf. Wg. VI H. Model H.1.
Tank No. 131
Chassis No. 250122
Turret No. 230639

Condition:
The general condition of the vehicle is reasonably good both structurally and mechanically.

Heavy frontal attack is in evidence at the front of the vehicle. An oblique hit which registered at 12 o’clock on the superstructure top plate has fractured the lateral weld along the centre of the plate. The round struck the turret ring joint damaging the pneumatic sealing tube and jamming the turret traverse. The blow on the top front plate also resulted in the complete disintegration of the wireless set.

There are no penetrations of the armour although the vehicle has been subjected to heavy fire, the front vertical plate and the turret front being considerably scarred. Apart from a minor defect in the starting apparatus the vehicle was in good mechanical condition when received in this country.

Lee

 

Desperate to discover the secret technology used in the Tiger's manufacture, Winston Churchill close (sic) a brilliant young army engineer, Major Doug Lidderdale, as his special agent. In a late-night briefing in the subterranean War Rooms under Whitehall he ordered him: 'Go catch me a tiger'.

Examined at Chobham,

D.T.D Project No. 3016,

November 1943

Examiner: Major A. D. Lidderdale, A.M.I.Mech.E., R.E.M.E.
Is this the same chap?

 

Peter, yes seems to be. And this from Idler's post.


Some of the eBay pages include:

And there is 122532 Aubrey Douglas Lidderdale in the RAOC in 1940 and transferred to REME in 1943...

Someone's going to have to buy it to read it!

Lidderdale certainly produced a technical report on 131 in November 1943 in the UK.

 

Here are a few pages from the 20-page report (Source TNA WO 194/1115).

 

Bundesarchiv: Claimed to be Tiger 131 January 1943 Tunisia.

legend states (Passes Steyer 1500A)

With captured halftrack.



Bundesarchiv - Das Bundesarchiv



Bundesarchiv - Picture database:



Welding Design and Fabrication of German Tank Hulls and Turrets - UK - 1948