Casualty: 'Cat C' ...

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Skip, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Hello All,

    Would anyone know what the 'Cat C' means in the attached service record extract?

    Any ideas gratefully received ...

    Cheers

    Skip
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Possible P.O.W. in sunken ship - "Cat C" possible for death and not KIA - died of woods etc any other pointers in records ?

    Cheers
     
  3. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson Member

  4. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Hello Tom/Fred

    Unfortunately there's absolutely nothing on his service record or casualty card that helps ... very strange. He was a member of 2nd SAS and is not on the nominal roll of the only amphibious operation in the Italian Theatre that works time-wise (Saxifrage, the ope report makes no mention of any casually incurred during the infil either).

    I can't find him on any operation nominal rolls prior to his date of death (27/10/43) so this may be one I don't get to the bottom of. He's on the Cassino Memorial to the missing, although he was not presumed missing until a month after what was later noted as his official date of death suggesting that he was either in enemy hands or behind the lines.

    Will keep looking!

    Cheers

    Skip
     
  5. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Skip,
    There was two operations on the 27th October 1943 not one, both by landing craft `CANDYTUFT` was aimed at cutting the railway and communications on the Italian east coast in the Pescara area carried out by an attachment of 2 SAS although two men were taken prisoner but I don't know anything else

    Kyle
     
  6. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Cheers Kyle - he's not on Candytuft's nominal roll or report either but now thinking there must be more of the Saxifrage report than I have. I hate using the new TNA search engine so can't find if there is more than one file for it. Thanks for the reply
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Skip

    Relying on memory - Two landings by the SAS - this was attached to the Battle for Termoli - 1 SAS was led by the Irishman to

    disrupt the rail lines etc the other #2 SAS was led by - Roy Farran to assist the infantry….

    Cheers
     
  8. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks Tom - will keep digging!
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I think - but can't find anything to back it up [Edit: see posts 17 & 18 for proof] - that Cat. C (and A and B ) relates to the level of information or evidence for casualties : date, proof, official paperwork, witness accounts, etc. Something like that anyway, a clerk's annotations - not about circumstances per se, eg DOW/KIA etc, and not to remains being identified (C covers individuals now commemorated as burials or on memorials).

    These categories are much in evidence in the Missing Personnel files. Most of the men listed in the files are Cat C.
    I'd interpret that to mean that it had been difficult to gather any firm evidence of capture/death for the majority of chaps who remained on these lists, whether or not a body was subsequently located and identified.

    Anyway, it's only a theory.

    I wish, I wish ... that WW2 veterans who worked as clerks would be able to explain not only these Categories in casualty paperwork, but all the other elusive gobbledygook in service records as well.


    Perhaps with more and more of us accessing the likes of Missing Personnel files, someone might find a handy explanation. Explanatory notes for procedures relating to field burials, for medal recommendations, have come to light, so who knows.


    e.g. Irish Guards, 1st Battalion Italy, see FORAN and HARRIS entries
    [​IMG]
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  10. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks very much for posting that - better than any theory I have and I hope I can get to the bottom of the case so we can reverse engineer what the actual meaning is, or at least very likely to be. Appreciate the reply dbf.
     
  11. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    I think you've hit the nail on the head Diane


    Found this about a chap who went missing 20 June 1942. Confirmed as POW
    28 January 1944 now reverts to missing (no longer a POW)
    "Presumed KIA (!) while a POW, Cat C" NOK informed 4 January 1946

    He actually died on 28 January 1944
    http://www.thebirdtree.co.uk/showmedia.php?mediaID=564
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Skip,

    If that image is from service record, have you checked missing personnel files, for his parent regt? There might well be something about him. they are a bit of a 'lucky dip'; some files are very scant indeed and consist in the main of a series of lists, while others have correspondence from comrades and reports by officers.


    I was very fortunate to be given a report which showed what might have happened to one man who was IG/2SAS, (missing March '44, Op Maple),
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/34263-operation-maple-thistledown-driftwood/?p=417610
    TNA Series WO 218 & WO 106

    [hr]
    Lesley
    seems to be a marathon of detective work on that link you posted.

    This all reminds me that I have one chap on the Cassino Memorial - who died in Tunisia!
     
  13. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Perhaps the answer to the `Cat` question is in the following files

    WO 361/130 ? or more likely one of these two WO32/14356 and WO32/14356 ?

    Kyle
     
    dbf likes this.
  14. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks for all the replies - much appreciated

    Diane - good idea about the parent regiment missing files. I have some although as you say they can be hit and miss. This chap was 1/4 Hampshires.

    The Maple Driftwood case is very interesting and I've spent a good deal of time looking into it. The investigation was complicated by the fact that it was conducted by only one man and the Regiment was disbanding time simply running out in Italy unlike France where 2nd SAS's dedicated team carried on after disbandment. Of the missing Driftwood men there were the two parties under Gunston and Benson (8 pax), plus Clubb ... but ten were witnessed as having been together - who was the tenth man? A quick look at CWGC for the Cassino Memorial for 7 March 1944 only brings up two names (Sgt Norman Anderson, York & Lancs, and Bdr George Worthington, RA) - a shame not to be able to nail it down, but I'm guessing only a look at their service records would do this.
     
    dbf likes this.
  15. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Skip
    Been a while since I read those Maple Driftwood reports but thanks for your insight.
    These 'investigations' do seem to be rushed in many cases, as you say out of necessity of the time, those involved doing their level best under the circumstances. Have an interest in the murder in Italy of 2 POW escapees, post Italian capitulation. The man who initiated that investigation immediately post hostilities was a fellow officer who had fought in the same bn in NA where the two had been captured, he trying to set out the basics before he was transferred elsewhere in the regiment. Sadly there seem to be too many cases which never reached an entirely satisfactory conclusion.

    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11603200



    also, covering date / the region

    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11603390


    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11603321


    There are other files: Hamps seem to have been divided into bn, rather than going by regt, for Italian Theatre
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_aq=hampshire&_ep=missing&_or1=&_or2=&_or3=&_nq1=&_nq2=&_nq3=&_sd=&_ed=&_col=0&_sw=ref&_cr1=wo&_cr2=&_cr3=&_ps=15&_ro=any&_rd=&_rsd=&_red=&_fr=&_st=adv
     
  16. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks Diane - very much appreciate the references and will have a look when I'm next at Kew.

    All the best

    Skip
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks to a certain forum member BrianM59 ordering this file WO 162/205 History of Casualty Branch (Liverpool) my Senior Head Research Executive was able to find these pages for you.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Owen and dbf like this.
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    And this one
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Drew - that is bob on! Cheers for posting this as it obviously means I have a better idea of why this particular casualty was posted missing. More than that it'll prove a very good reference for the future in other cases.

    Really appreciate that,

    Skip
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Glad to help but others get the credit. I just posted it :D
     

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