Hi everybody For the week Thursday 15th May 2014 to 22nd May my wife and I will be taking her 83 year old mother to visit the grave of her brother in Cassino CWG cemetery a long held wish of hers! Her brother was Sydney Thomas John Hyde private 2nd Bn Beds and Herts Reg. He died on 29th May 1944 but was wounded on the night 12/13th May aged 24. I understand he was involved in an operation to do with the Amazon Bridge and was a stretcher bearer at the time he was shot. We are writing to ask if anybody could kindly help with the following questions? Is it still poss. To see the place where he would have been that night bearing in mind m in law not too good now on pins. Sid was injured that night and was I would think in hospital until he died would anybody have any idea where that might have been and could we visit it and do records exist? I noticed on web that there is a ceremony that week in the cemetery would we be able to attend this. Many thanks Paul
Paul, Hello and welcome to the Forum. Please take a look at this previous thread on the subject of Amazon Bridge. http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/14144-amazon-bridge-monte-cassino/?hl=%2Bamazon+%2Bbridge There is other Information availabe by searching the Forum Posts There are several Italian Forum Members and hopefully one will log in, see your post and make contact. Bearing in mind the reason for the trip, I hope that you all enjoy the visit. Regards Tom
I thought I had copied the units war diary for someone on here but I must be mistaken. Frank (Minden) is probably your best man to help - He's all over Italy, mainly Cassino. Failing that I have the regiments history and will type a few bits up for you. A quick look states the battalion was holding the bridgehead but Amazon hadn't been built yet. Here is the units war diary ref at Kew. Knowing the WO 170 series diaries it will probably be over 500 pages WO 170/1358 2 Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment 1944 Feb-July http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2410204/HYDE,%20SYDNEY%20THOMAS%20JOHN
Paul, Getting into the CWGC cemetery is via some steps (about 10-15 or so) and it will be quite hot in mid May (25-30C)... The site of Amazon bridge is across some farmland and, as mentioned, member Frank (Minden1759) knows the area quite well - he'll also be there in May (as will a number of others here). By the side of the road going south from Cassino towards San Angelo and just beyond the cemetery, there is a Beds and Herts memorial. There is indeed an RBL/British Embassy ceremony at the cemetery on the morning of Monday 19th May and is open to everyone but it will be exceptionally busy with lots of "VIPs" gathering so if you are attending with your mum, bring a chair and sit in the shade..and parking will be very difficult.... Apart from that, it should be a moving event. You would think that Sydney might have been evacuated southwards to somewhere like Caserta, but given the fact that he is buried at Cassino cemetery, perhaps he was in hospital somewhere more local or it's possible that the regiment asked for all their men, who died during that May period, to be recovered to Cassino to lie together I attach four pages of the Beds & Herts main war diaries from May 1944 to give you an idea of some of what happened on 11/12 May, but an over view account usually gives you more depth and nuance - might suggest you read an over view history of 4th Division, which should cover some of Beds and Herts' actions and then delve deeper from there. Personal service records can be obtained from the UK MoD. No doubt you'll have plenty more questions - Tom's link is a good one. best
a picture taken of the Beds and Herts memorial looking towards the Gari river (there is one also on the other thread).
Paul You might consider posting your e-mail address to my Private Message Box so that I (as a 90 year old) possibly may be able to offer some guidance. I went back to Cassino Cemetery myself in May 2005. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/86/a4062386.shtml Best regards Ron
Thanks everyone for the replies Does anybody know if we paid the £35 and applied for Sids service record would it contain records of his injury and hospital details?
My GFs grandfather records did but I think all service records are slightly different depending on who was filling them in, what pages if any are lost and Andrea's grandfather survived the war so not sure if it would be different for someone who died of wounds. I'm guessing it would depend on how quick the record keeping was at catching up with a soldier at any given time. In short - You'll never know unless you look but they may not arrive before your trip.
You might also consider dropping a note to the CWGC and ask if they could tell you/your mother where Private Hyde was initially buried - not sure of the privacy laws wrt this but given the next of kin relationship, there might be chance of them responding to your request...good luck, and see you in May, best
Sheet 6 of my Army Records (see my Gallery photos) shows my initial posting to both the 11th Field Ambulance Unit and then the 93rd General at Naples. http://ww2talk.com/forums/gallery/album/5-rons-army-records/ As others have pointed out, this is no guarantee that other researchers will be as lucky with the records that they receive. Ron
Paul, If you do not already have the Service record, it really would be advantageous to obtain the Full Service Record. I am confident that it will contain the date of injuries and hospitalization, but there is no guarantee that it will. My late father was blown several meters into the air by an 88 Shell that dropped near him when he was at Forli airfield. He received perforated ear drums and bruising, being extremely lucky on that Occasion. No mention on his Report as it was obviously not serious to merit a mention. Regards Tom
LEIGHTON BUZZARD BEAUDESERT SCHOOL - Roll of Honour HYDE Sydney Thomas John Private 5950866, 2nd Battalion The Hertfordshire Regiment, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment. Died on Monday 29th May 1944. Age 24. Son of Thomas and Florence Elizabeth Hyde, of Leighton Buzzard. Buried in CASSINO WAR CEMETERY, Italy. Grave I. E. 4. See alsoLeighton Buzzard. http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/LeightonBuzzardBeaudesertRollofHonour.html LEIGHTON BUZZARD - Roll of Honour http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/LeightonBuzzardRollofHonour.html
Paul. I have sent you a PM. I am in Cassino on 16-19 May 14 running a battlefield study that includes a through look at the Amazon Bridge operation by 4 British Infantry Division on the fateful night of 12-13 May 44. It is quite a story and 2 Beds & Herts were heavily involved in establishing and then consolidating the bridgehead in anticipation of the arrival of tanks. Regards FdeP
Paul I think it would be a big waste of time trying to get details of his hospitalization as they treated this like the Official secrets but as I recall there was a Field Ambulance unit at Presenzano- about 15 miles South of Cassino where have he might have been taken before entraining for 93rd or 95th Gen Hospitals at Naples where he probably died. Cassino Cemetery also has the graves and p panel names of Men who were killed as far away as Sicily - Anzio - Salerno et al… Cheers
Paul. Just to be clear. Cassino CWGC has two parts. The outer ring has the headstones of individual casualties whose bodies were recovered and the inner bit has a series of marble structures on which are inscribed all the names of those killed in Italy but whose bodies were never found. On wounding, Pte Hyde would have been taken back to the Regimental Aid Post where the Doctor would have asseesed whether he lived or died. In this case, he would have been assessed as someone who was likely to live. From there, A vehicle from a Field Ambulance unit would have taken him back to a Dressing Station where surgeons would have been available to operate. From their, he would have been pushed back to Field Hospital. Tracing Pte Hyde's movements on wounding is almost impossible because the Battalion's War Diaries only give Other Ranks as figures. Officers tended to be named but Other Ranks tended to be '13 Sgts, 3 Cpls and 8 Ptes evacuated this morning'. Regards FdeP
Undoubtedly, as mentioned, it's most difficult (if not impossible) to trace the route of hospitalisations of indiividuals from that period. At the risk of causing analysis freeze, I note that of the 73 Beds and Herts' men who are listed on the CWGC database for the period from 11th May 1944 to 2nd June 1944: - Sixty seven (67) are buried, and four are on the memorial wall at Cassino, - Two are buried in Naples. Private Hyde's date of death is the 2nd last listed from that period, and the last dated at the Cassino CWGC cemetery. I met up with a number of Beds and Herts Assn members in Italy in 2009 - obviously the regiment itself has been subsumed within the Royal Anglian. http://www.royalanglianassociation.co.uk/areabranches/BedsandHerts.html And the CWGC "research" route might throw up something from their records.. best
Frank - He would have to be very lucky if he was looked at by a Doctor before he got to a Casualty Clearing Station - then the next stop would be a General Hospital - we re recalling 1944 here… Cheers
Hello Ron I notice on one of your posts that you was sent to hospital from Cassino to Naples. Do you have any ideas on where Sid might have ended up in hospital do you think he might have gone the same route as you Paul
Bods If you were to have a look at my posting #17 you might find - in all probability he was sent down to Presenzano for initial treatment at a Field Ambulance before going on a train down the 60 odd miles to the General Hospitals at Naples which had been set up shortly after that City was captured on 1st October in 1943 which was the likeliest way to go although there were many more General Hospitals over at the Bari area as that had been set up prior to Naples…but I repeat - you will waste great deal of time trying to find out… In my own case I was picked up after nightfall - looked at in the Infantry Regimental Aid Post by a sergeant first aider- sent by jeep ambulance to the CCS 50 miles away treated then sent by Hospital ship down to Bari- finally ending up in Catania Sicily patched up there and sent back up the line- the whole trip taking more than five months. See my article 'Battle of San Martino ' in the BBc series below… Cheers
Paul Whilst trying to be helpful, your guess is as good as mine. You have been given several possible routes that were taken by myself and other veterans and you will only have confirmation if you obtain Sid's records and even then, as I pointed out earlier, there is no guarantee that this info will be on the records you finally receive. Sorry to be so dismissive but it is right that you should be aware that you may be chasing a lost cause. Ron
