Carpet Bombing

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by strangelove, Aug 22, 2004.

  1. strangelove

    strangelove Junior Member

    can somebody explain me the main reason of mass bombing of dresden and other city's in germany during ww2 (1940-45). i know that major goals were war factoryes, power plants, military hq etc.

    but that's not a reason for killing over 200 000 civilians in dresden, or is it maybe?


    sven
     
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    There's a new book on the subject, which debunks the myth popularized by David Irving that the raid was a gratuitous assault purely to impress the Russians.

    The bombing offensive was, in the long run, an expensive failure, because the wrong targets were selected. The main target to hit should have been oil and transportation, not factories and cities.
     
  3. strangelove

    strangelove Junior Member

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Aug 22 2004, 01:45 AM
    There's a new book on the subject, which debunks the myth popularized by David Irving that the raid was a gratuitous assault purely to impress the Russians.

    The bombing offensive was, in the long run, an expensive failure, because the wrong targets were selected. The main target to hit should have been oil and transportation, not factories and cities.
    [post=27550]Quoted post[/post]

    thnx, early this morning friend delivered me set of books about ww2 ("bericht van de tweede wereld oorlog - original in dutch - 17 books, i have an croatian issue...) and i found a chapter about massive air raids over german cities.

    dresden was destroyed in 3 big air strikes.

    1st was in february 13. 1945 with 245 "lancaster" heavy bombers and killing everything is possible on streets of dresden. next one was about 1.30h later when dresdend became a hell torch viewable from 90km so allied bombers had no difficulties with navigation. in this strike they've killed aprox. 70% of firefighters. this was only introduction to next morning with 450 b-17's and more than 150 mustangs killing the very little survived people in town.

    during this catastrophe there was about 20 000 american and british p.o.w. in dresden and many of them died under their own bombs.

    at the end of war german goverment tried to charge allies for this catstrophe, but they explained that attack was ordered from moscow what soviets denied. everybody, accept germans, knew tha it was a churchill plan. RAF marshall Harris wrotte this by the end of the war:
    "people more important than me thought that destroying of dresden is a military obligation".

    statistics:

    human casualties

    Dresden - 150 000
    Tokyo - 84 000
    Hiroshima - 72 000*
    Nagasaki - 24 000*

    * - only that many japanesse died of radiation years after
     
  4. DirtyDick

    DirtyDick Senior Member

    I have read that it was as much used to attempt to break the resolve of the German people as much as destroy their factories; I suppose also the belief being that the inhabitants of any oppressive, non-democratic regime would take the cue to dissent.

    Otherwise, I suppose that it was a tangible display to the Russians of the other Allies' very real commitment to help them in defeating Germany.

    Whatever effect it had on the eventual outcome of the war is a moot point, but the diversion of resources and the suffering of the civilian population would not have helped the Nazis' war effort.

    Bizarre that the Germans should have sought redress for the targetting of civilians given their own record in this regard in WW2 (some 600,000 French civilians died, without mentioning the Eastern Front).

    Richard
     
  5. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    This is a copy of a book review that I posted on Historic-Battles some moths ago which is relevant to the topic:

    Dresden, Tuesday 13 February 1945, by Frederick Taylor, London, 2004. Published by Bloomsbury, cover price £20.

    Length about 530 pages, plus photos. The standard of proof reading could have been better, because there are a number of typographical errors, such as word transpositions.

    Interestingly, although my copy is the edition published in Britain, the spelling is American English, presumably in preparation for US publication - I wonder if this marks a trend and, if so, what it means for the future of English.

    Anyway, the book is about the two RAF raids on the night of 13/14 February 1945 and the daylight raid by the USAAF on 14 February. It adequately covers the bombing technicalities, but I think the perspective is firmly on the ground, so the results get much more space. We are told in fairly graphic detail how the firestorm took hold and developed.

    We are introduced to the history of the city of Dresden, how it grew and developed over the centuries. We are told something of how Dresden experienced earlier wars, such as the 30 and 7 years wars and the Napoleonic era as the capitol of the then Kingdom of Saxony and links, through the ruling Wettin family with the Kingdom of Poland. The detail increases as we get nearer to WWII, including the growing reputation of Dresden as a city of art and culture and, in particular, how the city fared in the Nazi era.

    We also learn that Dresden was in fact a major industrial centre in WWII, heavily involved in armaments production, including electronic and optical equipment and ammunition manufacture. It was also a major communications, particularly rail, and administrative centre.

    However, although the Dresden area had been bombed by the USAAF on previous occasions, the historic heart of the city was untouched and it had not suffered an area bombing raid from the RAF main force. This acted to reinforce the commonly held view that the allies had decided not to attack Dresden because of its cultural significance. As a result, air raid precautions were totally inadequate and not on a par with other important German cities. Thus, Dresden was particularly ill prepared for the raids.

    After the war, the Communist regime in the DDR both inflated the casualty figures and used the raids as anti-western, particularly anti-US propaganda, but we learn that the Soviet leadership had requested in a plenary session at the Yalta conference for assistance in the form of bombing. It is also stated that in an unminuted discussion, General Antonov, Deputy Chief of Staff of the Red Army, had specificaly asked for Dresden to be bombed, although this account relies on a single oral source.

    What is for sure is that Dresden had been on the RAF's target list for some time and that it was a high priority target on a list produced at the top level in early February 1944.

    Anyway, what of the raids?

    The USAAF had been due to bomb first, on 13 February, but this raid was postponed due to bad weather. As a consequence, the first raid was by 5 Group RAF at about 10PM that evening. They found air defence practically non-existent and, although there had been thick cloud all the way, the sky over the target was clear. This meant that they were able to mark the target at low level with a high degree of precision and achieve concentrated bombing. The designated target was the old town and it was this raid that started the firestorm. The mix of HE and incendiaries was standard for a major RAF raid, but what stands out is the degree of concentration achieved.

    The RAF always hoped to achieve highly concentrated bombing, but seldom did. But without it there would not be firestorms.

    The second RAF raid, at about 1AM on 14 February, was less concentrated, but the damage caused enabled the existing firestorm to spread.

    The USAAF raid encountered poor visibility, but caused severe damage, particularly to the rail marshalling yards and surrounding areas. Like the RAF, the bombs dropped included a high proportion of incendiaries.

    The aftermath of the raids is discussed at some length, including the casualty figures. Previous writers have claimed various numbers, from about 25,000 to as many as 250,000 killed. The evidence is reviewed and the author states his opinion of the best estimate - between 25,000 and 40,000, which is actually consistent with the figures from other firestorm raids, including Hamburg.

    Other legends are debunked at some length, including the story that part of the USAAF fighter force with the bombers strafed Dresden.

    In my opinion, this book is a valuable corrective to other writers, such as David Irving and others, who are responsible for many of the myths which have grown over the years.

    Also, by telling us about Dresden both before and after the raids, it places the bombing in context.

    Taylor is a writer of some skill and I found his style very readable.

    My verdict: if you are interested in the history of air warfare in WWII, this book is for you.

    I expect it to be attacked by those who use Dresden as part of the myth of the "German holocaust", because it undermines their position, but with 30 pages of endnotes and an extensive bibliography, this is source based history and any future writers will need to come up with new research if they want to challenge Taylor.
     
  6. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Casualty sources, their reliability and how they have been interpreted are gone over in detail not just in Taylor's book, but also in a chapter of Telling Lies About Hitler, Richard J Evans, 2002.

    Evans is an eminent historian and Professor of Modern History at Cambridge University. His book is based on material he prepared as a defence witness in the David Irving libel trial and the chapter sets out to show that Irving's methodology in his work on Dresden was suspect. I don't want to get into that here, but in the process, Evans reviewed the source material available and the historiography of the figures.

    Based on the work of Taylor and Evans, I am as confident as I could be that the number of deaths was not above 40,000. Don't get me wrong, this is a huge figure and I do not for one moment try to equate numbers with morality. If the number had been higher, that would not be an issue with me, because I do not for one minute think it changes my line of reasoning on the justification for the raid, which is:

    1. Harris and Spaatz chose Dresden from a target list approved by higher authority which gave it a high priority. The choice of target on any given day depended on a number of factors, not least weather, but the targets on the list were approved at top level. Therefore, I think that Harris has been unfairly singled out for scapegoating.
    2. There was nothing abnormal about the size and composition of the bomber forces, the techniques used, or the makeup of the bombloads. All normal for city attacks, particularly by the RAF main force.
    3. All large RAF raids at the time had the potential to start a firestorm if the conditions were right, which they were in Dresden, particularly the degree of bombing concentration achieved in the first raid by 5 Group, RAF. Thus, there is no distinction to be made between raids where there was a firestorm and those where there was not.
    4. The Dresden casualty figures were consistent with those in other firestorm raids.

    I am fairly confident about trusting the range 25,000 - 40,000, but always open to new evidence. As Evans says, there is a "convergence of the major authentic sources around estimates in the area of 25,000 dead". (Telling lies About Hitler, Verso, 2002, p 185).

    The published works of Gotz Bergander and Friedrich Reichart, quoted in both Taylor and Evans, attempt to calculate the number of refugees in Dresden at the time.

    Bergander came up with the following:

    - 9,000 temporarily lodged in the train stations (I think most of these will have been killed during or shortly after the RAF raids, as the main station was in the heart of the firestorm).
    - 6,000 trekking with carts, etc. but spread out over the whole Dresden area.
    - 85,000 in emergency accommodation, that is placed there by the city authorities.

    This gives us 100,000, but Bergander then doubled his estimate to 200,000 to include people who may have made their own arrangements, but with no real basis for doing so except this own opinion.

    Reichart, noting that there had been no billeting in private houses, or in parks and squares, gave 100,000. He also calculated the resident population as 567,000 at the time, down from 630,000 pre-war, largely due to the number of men away from the city on military service. If correct, this would mean that refugees added about 17.5% to the actual population on the night of the raid.

    There are also a range of survivor accounts to the effect that Dresden didn't feel like a city overcrowded with refugees just before the raids.

    If asked, I will post the source references in full and I know I am being lazy by not doing so.
     
  7. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Just a brief comment on carpet bombing.

    If anyone practiced carpet bombing, it was the USAAF, not the RAF, which carried out area bombing. There is a difference.

    The USAAF flew in tight daytime formations, which all dropped when the lead bomber dropped, thus laying a carpet of bombs, even when precision aiming was achieved, which frequently it was not. Faced with cloud cover, the USAAF often dropped blind, using H2X radar, which was no more accurate than the RAF at night.

    Much earlier in the war, the RAF switched to night bombing to reduce losses, but analysis showed that the smallest thing they could hit on a good day was a city. So, they abandoned any pretence of precision bombing and made city centres their aiming point. As the war progressed, they introduced improved aiming and target marking techniques, but kept to the policy of bombing urban areas. HE bombs increased in size to the point where a 4000 lb "cookie" (HE) and clusters of incendiaries became a standard load, with the HE opening up the buildings to receive the incendiaries. Thus, the aim was always to start fires. And they always strived for concentrated bombing. In effect, each aircraft flew an individual mission, not in formation and tried to bomb as close to the markers as possible.

    In a few cases, Dresden being one and Hamburg another, the bombing was sufficiently concentrated to start a self sustaining firestorm
     
  8. strangelove

    strangelove Junior Member

     
  9. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by strangelove@Aug 22 2004, 11:51 PM
    please....

    sven
    [post=27580]Quoted post[/post]

    You will have to give me a few days because of the little matter of this being the working week and I might not have the time till the weekend, but in return I think you owe us a source for your 200,000 figure.
     
  10. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    "I ask you: Do you want total war? If necessary, do you want a war more total and radical than anything that we can even imagine today?"

    Didn't German people answer this question much earlier than Goebbels speech was made? Much earlier than Hamburg and Dresden were destroyed?

    1 September 1939, 4:50 - 5:30 a.m., Wielun town, Poland. On this morning, despite the complete lack of military installations in the city, and with the nearest Polish troops of the 28th Infantry Division situated southwest of Wielun, German bombers of I./KG76 (4. Luftflotte), commanded by Oblt. Walter Sigel, brutally bombed the center of the city. And, after releasing their bombs, Luftwaffe pilots shot at panicked, escaping civilians. Three waves of bombers, totalling 120 aircraft took part in the attack, dropping more than 70 tons of bombs. The effect of the raid was the killing of more than 1200 civilians, the injuring of thousands more (the city's population was about 16,000 people), and the destruction of about 70% of the city's buildings.
    "Ob Figuren, Benzin, Bomben oder Brot, wir bringen Polen den Tod." (painted on some Ju 52 airframe) - for the Germans it wasn't slogan. And the Polish campaign wasn't a single example. So that's why I categorize those events simply as the acts of revenge and terror.
     
  11. strangelove

    strangelove Junior Member

    Originally posted by laufer@Aug 25 2004, 01:08 PM
    "I ask you: Do you want total war? If necessary, do you want a war more total and radical than anything that we can even imagine today?"

    Didn't German people answer this question much earlier than Goebbels speech was made? Much earlier than Hamburg and Dresden were destroyed?

    1 September 1939, 4:50 - 5:30 a.m., Wielun town, Poland. On this morning, despite the complete lack of military installations in the city, and with the nearest Polish troops of the 28th Infantry Division situated southwest of Wielun, German bombers of I./KG76 (4. Luftflotte), commanded by Oblt. Walter Sigel, brutally bombed the center of the city. And, after releasing their bombs, Luftwaffe pilots shot at panicked, escaping civilians. Three waves of bombers, totalling 120 aircraft took part in the attack, dropping more than 70 tons of bombs. The effect of the raid was the killing of more than 1200 civilians, the injuring of thousands more (the city's population was about 16,000 people), and the destruction of about 70% of the city's buildings.
    "Ob Figuren, Benzin, Bomben oder Brot, wir bringen Polen den Tod." (painted on some Ju 52 airframe) - for the Germans it wasn't slogan. And the Polish campaign wasn't a single example. So that's why I categorize those events simply as the acts of revenge and terror.
    [post=27656]Quoted post[/post]

    well i don't think it's so simple. this two acts, both german and allied bombing, are totaly equal, destruction of city and people. But what i'm asking you, is it a proper reason to do at the same level as germans did?

    i don't think so, this is much worse then Wielun city, war against humanity form both sides...
     
  12. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    What I mean is that the german civilians were the victims of spiral of violence started in the very first day of war by the Germany.
    You are obviously right we can't compare number of victims of small polish town mentioned above (or british Coventry) to capital of Saxony or Hamburg.
    I just think that most important motivation for such destructive Ally actions was a hate and willingness to punish and terrorize the enemy and it was provoked by Germans. And this aren't rational behaviours.
     
  13. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999+Aug 23 2004, 06:48 PM-->(angie999 @ Aug 23 2004, 06:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-strangelove@Aug 22 2004, 11:51 PM
    please....

    sven
    [post=27580]Quoted post[/post]

    You will have to give me a few days because of the little matter of this being the working week and I might not have the time till the weekend, but in return I think you owe us a source for your 200,000 figure.
    [post=27600]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Original sources:

    Extract from Der Hõhere SS-und Polizeifûhrer Elbe an den Gauen Halle-Merseburg, Sachsen und im Wehrkreis IV – Befehlhaber der Ordnungspolizei, Schlussmeldung ûber die vier Luftangriffe auf den LS-Ort Dresden am 13., 14. und 15. Februar 1945, signed by Wolfgang Thierig (Police Colonel), dictated by Max Jurk (Dresden Police) and dated 15 March 1945 and quoted in Walter Weidauser, Inferno Dresden. Ûber Lûgen und Legenden um die Aktion “Donnerschlag”, 2nd edition, 1966 (an authenticated copy of this document came to light after the publication of the 1st edition in 1965):

    “Until early 10.3.1945 established: 18,375 fallen, 2,212 badly wounded, 13,718 slightly wounded, 350,000 homeless and long-term requartered” and it ended with “The above report was submitted after agreement on the documents with the district committee of the NSDAP”.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Figures from death registers still extant in Dresden Town Hall, quoted in Weidauser, op. cit., 1st edition 1965: 31,102 deaths.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Registered burials from Dresden burial office records, quoted by Friedrich Reichart, “Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlichkeit” in Dresden City Museum (ed): Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlichkeit. Die Zerstõrung Dresdens 1945 (1994):

    Heidefriedhof cemetery: 17,295 (including remains of the 6,865 bodies cremated on the Altmarkt)
    Johannisfriedhof cemetery: 3,462
    Neue Annenfriedhof cemetery: 514
    Total registered burials: 21,271
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From “Situation Reports on Air Raids on Reich Territory”, produced by the Berlin Chief of Police:

    Report no 1404 dated 22 March 1945: current death toll 18,375, predicted death toll 25,000, missing 35,000. (Note: the missing figure includes people who left Dresden after the raids but had yet to be traced)
    Report no 1414 dated 3 April 1945: “BdO ( Befehlhaber der Ordnungspolizei) Dresden. Up to 31.3.1945 the number of killed recovered numbers 22,096 persons.”
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Copy of original Der Hõhere SS-und Polizeifûhrer, Dresden: Tagesbefehl Nr. 47, Luftangriff auf Dresden made in 1945 by Police reservist Werner Ehlich as part of his official duties:

    Actual death figure 20,204, expected figure 25,000, bodies cremated 6,865.

    (Quoted in Gõtz Bergander: Dresden im Luftkrieg. Vorgeschichte – Zerstõrung – Folgen (1977))

    A version of this document, quoting 202,040, 250,000 and 68,650 respectively, has been widely quoted by pseudo-historian David Irving and appears to be the only “source” for claims of a death toll of 200,000+. However, it was almost certainly rewritten by the Propaganda Ministry as part of their campaign to inflate the total and the version quoted by Irving is acknowledged to be a forgery. Irving himself in a letter to the Times, published on 7 July 1966 admitted it was not reliable and now says as much in the 1995 English language edition of his book.

    I do not claim this as a complete list of sources, but it is enough to be getting on with.

    In addition, there are reliable sources to show that less than 2,000 additional bodies were discovered in Dresden from the end of WWII to the present day, in spite of the now complete excavation and reconstruction.

    And incidentally, it cannot be argued that many thousands of bodies were totally consumed in the fire. First, the vast majority of recovered bodies showed evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning and asphyxiation rather than burning. And bones are almost never totally consumed by fire (see Dead Men Do Tell Tales, William R Maples PhD (1994) ch. 10: Flames and Urns - Maples was a pioneer in the field of forensic anthropology).

    Still waiting for a source for 200,000, because you cannot just throw wild figures around if you cannot back them up with sources.
     
  14. mteddy

    mteddy Junior Member

    Carpet bombing was a strategic way, to damage indepth factories, supplies, etc, so the main front to weaken up and surrender or be smashed away. Obviously mainly US used this as major strategy, because they never head a strong spearhead to engage directly Axis forces, such as russians did, or others at some extent. The tactics have been primarily used by UK, with some success, being borrowed as usual by US Forces soon in WWII, considering the potential of this. Now obviously in such approach, civilians are to be ignored, being secondary casualties, at least from army guys perspective.
    Now, such "ideas" have been used also in Balkans, mainly to stop fueling the german "bloody" but really powerful war engine (referrering to tanks, and all mechanized vehicles), especially over Romania, that at that time have been the main oil source for eastern front. Now, not all such B52s got back, many being shot down, and heavy casualties being inflicted too, due to weather crappy conditions, improper maps, incorrect targets, etc.

    Even though, we cannot say it was any difference in lifes loses, or at least consideration for it, from leaders perspectives, no matter that one was russian, american, english, or german either ...
     

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  15. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

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  16. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by sapper@Jan 23 2005, 11:00 AM
    If you sow the wind, then do not complain if you reap the whirlwind.
    Sapper
    [post=30840]Quoted post[/post]

    I totally agree.
     
  17. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Could not agree more Sapper.
    If you punch someone in the face then do not complain if they kick you in the balls.
    If your country wages " total war " then do not complain if you recieve it in kind.
    I am always amazed by the number of Germans of that era whose first comment is ," I was never a Nazi,".
    So every one else but them is responsible.
    Unless of course they won.
    My Father fought in Greece, Crete, North Africa and Italy. He died 5 years ago and was very angry at the revisionest rubbish being spouted then.
    We have the comfort of this forum because of people like Sapper, my Father and millions of others.
    I wish I had such hindsight as others because I would have picked a faster horse, the right Lotto numbers and not married my first wife.
    In the days, months, years of the war Germany got all it deserved.
    What next. Germany never lost the war, just came second.
     
  18. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

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  19. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I would actually challenge you, Sapper, about the extermination camps, all based in Poland or further east. I think that these were a very closely guarded secret and most Germans did not know more that a fraction of the truth. Many might have guessed, but they did not know.

    The concentration camps within Germany, initially used to imprison the Nazi's political opponents, were a different matter though. Most or all Germans would have known about them.

    I am careful never to suggest an equivalence between the extermination camps and the allied bombing campaign. Modern neo-Nazis try to put forward the bombing of Germany as the "German holocaust", at the same time as they are trying to argue that the numbers who died in the camps was about the same as the numbers killed by bombing. There is no equivalence between allied bombing and the Holocaust.

    The allied bombing campaign was simply the only way to take the war to Germany prior to 1945. It was intended as an attack on the German ability to wage war and the methods employed were those judged to be the most effective at the time. I think it is fully justified on its own merit.
     
  20. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    removed
     

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