Captured Italian Records

I am trying to discover what Italian records captured during the war are in UK archives. I am especially interested in records captured between June 1940-March 1941 in North Africa. The Italian archive has a limited number per of records due to the their lost/destruction/capture during that campaign.

My ability to search UK records is limited (the difficulty is determine the best keys words to pull up those records). I did find this record at Kew:

PRO 57/8580
Date 1990 Jan 1 - 1991 Dec 31
Description: The Italian Collection (captured Italian records): photocopies; GFM 36
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Former department reference A GFM/36
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Access conditions
Open on Transfer
Closure status
Open Document, Open Description
Record URL
https://beta.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/id/C16621355/

I am wondering if this is an index of all the records held. If so, it is a great research tool and what I need. I am happy to use a researcher to access/copy the record, but need to know what this actually contains before devoting resources (money) to obtaining a copy.

Does anyone know what Italian captured records are held by the archives?

Thank you for any information/assistance.

v/r Jeff

 

Two members, Drew5233 and Gary Tankard are regularly in TNA, who will copy the WD, they are cheaper than TNA! Add a Post on this thread if you need their help: Anyone require War Diaries or other files from the National Archives?

Have a look at this thread, they may help: Italian Naval Records - Where to search

 

Thank you davidbfpo. Yes I aware of those that offer research services here on WW2 Talk. My challenge is telling them which files to access.

What I am hoping to discover are any documents captured on the battlefield by British forces during June 40-Mar 41 in NA. These would not be part of any collection secured at the end of the war. I am assuming that a large number of documents from the 10ª Armata and subordinate units were collected during the campaign ending at Beda Fomm. The document that I have referenced above is on microfilm and I don't know whether the TNA still has microfilm printers or whether Drew or Gary can work with microfilm. If this file is truly an index of the collection, that would guide me in the next steps. I am trying to assess whether it is worth a researcher's time and my money to obtain a copy.

My own search in the catalog hasn't been encouraging. The few documents I found were all dated after the German intervention, mainly German in origin, and covering German topics. I hope that my lack of familiarity with the archives search engine is the reason for my inability to find any Italian documents, but my fear is that the documents captured on the battlefield have been lost/destroyed years ago. The links you provided mainly discuss the holdings in NARA, to which I have full access and have ruthlessly plundered.

v/r Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

Two suggestions for you:

1. I think captured enemy documents are held by the Imperial War Museum at Duxford, so would be worth contacting them to see if they have a catalogue. There were used by the Cabinet Historical Office to produce English language narratives from an enemy perspective to support the official historians.
2. There are GHQ ME Intelligence files at the UK National Archives that cover what was extracted from the captured documents/prisoner interrogations/sigint, etc. You will probably be able to work out each source. Give me a day or two and I’ll post up some examples. I’ve got some of the file for early 1941.

Regards

Tom

 

Thank you Tom. I will see if I can contact Duxford.

v/r Jeff

 

My experience is that most, if not all, captured documents were destroyed shortly after they ceased to be useful. There are some sample ones to be found, and you often find translated documents in some WDs, but never the originals.

The documents Tom refers to in the CAB files (at least the German ones for Italy) were returned to the Bundesarchiv and captured post-war from German archives, not in the field.

 

Thank you Gary. Your statement matches one that I have buried deep in my memory from some years ago.

I suspected the CAB files were the same as those captured by the Allies at the end of war.

Again than you.

v/r Jeff

 

There is a substantial amount of permanent preservation stuff, where it was used to draft the OH. E.g. the German captured records from North Africa and maps for Northern France 1940 are extensive. They are held by the Enemy Document Section, IWM Duxford. In 2008 I was allowed access a few times, even offered tea by the archivist.

Let me dig out an email and revert.

Having said that, PRO57/8580 is definitely held by Kew, not IWM:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16621355

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi Gary,

Yes, I agree. Those at Duxford are most likely those captured post-war although not sure when Italian archives were captured. On the fall of Rome? At the end of the war?

Here's a good example of a reference to "captured documents" in a GHQ MEF Int Summary of January 1941:



I think some of the documents are quoted at length in these ISUM's such as this appendix a couple of ISUM's later:



I seem to recall it was a massive file, so I didn't copy it all being mainly interested in the Greek campaign at the time. Happy to share what I've got though.

Regards

Tom

 

Thank you Andreas. I would love to get all that you have. So I should mine the MEF Intel Summaries for this period?

The Italian Archives were captured by the Germans in 43, and then by the Allies in 45. The T821 series basically uses the German cataloging system, hence the rather jumbled organization of the files as they were organized to serve the Germans purposes. One issue is that that some of the folders were only selectively microfilmed (only 60% of all the total files is what the NARA guide states were filmed), so those little minor bits that we as historians love are often missing. The archives were returned to Italy in the 60's, but little has been done to better organize them. When I was researching in the archive, some of the files were still in the US War Dept. folders/envelopes.

 

Jeff - I did send you the stuff Vanda got me out of the Army archives?

Let me know if not.

The intsums are from Tom. Tom - do you have the WO number for those?

All the best

Andreas[/QUOTE]

 

Andreas

I am not sure what material you are referring to from 'Vanda'? I do have WO169-924 - GS Int GHQ MEF Jan - Mar 41 which came from you. I am hoping for Jun-Dec 40.

I looked at the links you just sent today from your contact. Thank you. The issue remains that there isn't any index of the records within those holdings. It is back to discovering the right search terms to pull up what is available. From reading the descriptions, I sense that these are the same records held by NARA but can't be sure. They also appear to be mostly German records.

v/r Jeff

 

WO 169/924 - which it seems Jeff already has. Did you copy the entire file?

Sadly, I've not got anything [yet!!] from 1940.

Regards

Tom

 

Tom

I might have gotten WO 169/924 from you. It was in Oct 2023 and it has been awhile since I had looked at them after I put the book on hold. The file is 793 images. I did find some good material in the files. I wish there had been more. The 89 pages of snippets from the 10ª Armata daily intelligence summaries from July to Dec 40 indicated the wealth of records that had been captured.

I have received a few more Italian records that I have just finished translating. I still have Graziani's 195 page AAR covering Sep 40 - Feb 41 to translate. After comparing the AAR to his book, I am pretty sure the AAR became the underlying structure of his book (which I also have).

v/r Jeff