Captured Ammo and equipment

That was one bad ar$e that I would not have wanted to mess with.

 

I've not long finished reading my R.P. Hunnicutt, 'Sherman, a history of the American medium tank'. An excellent book by the way, from which the following excerpts are taken. In a section entitled 'Introduction in the desert' he refers to the lack of suitable anti-tank rounds for the 75mm gun after it was rushed into service aboard the M3 General Grant tank. The face-hardened armour plate employed by the Germans demanded a capped armour piercing projectile.Such a round had been developed for the 75mm tank gun but was not yet avaliable in the Middle East. This was the APC M61, an armor piercing capped projectile with a ballistic cap (APCBC) to reduce wind resistance and extend its effective range.
An interim stop-gap was tried, the AP M72 monobloc shot, this was often poor quality and usually failed to penetrate face-hardened steel at anything over 500 yards.A successful effort to provide effective armor piercing rounds resulted from the brilliant idea of Major Northy, an Australian serving with the British RAOC. Early in 1942, about 50,000 tons of assorted German ammunition captured during the relief of Tobruk were moved to the Ninth British Army Depot along the Suez canal. Among this vast supply were many of the explosive loaded APCBC rounds for the PzKpfw IV's 7.5cm KwK L/24. Major Northy noted that if the rotating band was modified, the German projectile could be fitted into a U.S. cartridge case and fired from the M3's 75.
The German projectile differed from its U.S. couterpart in having a much wider and thicker rotating band, but the basic dimensions were essentially the same. A number of the German projectiles were removed from their cartridge cases and the rotating bands were turned down to the U.S. dimensions in a lathe. The rounds were then successfully assembled into U.S. cases and they chambered properly in the M3's 75mm gun. These were explosive loaded armor piercing projectiles fitted with a base detonating fuze. This fuze was armed by the projectile rotation when the round was fired. Fortunately the lathe rotation was insufficient to arm the fuze during the machining operation.
Some of the converted ammunition was test fired against a PzKpfw III hull in comparison with few of the new U.S. APC M61s which had been flown out to Cairo. Like the German round, the M61 was fitted with an armor piecing cap, but it was inert loaded since the development of a suitable base detonating fuze was not yet complete. The tests showed the penetration performance of the two rounds was identical. But the damage resulting from the German projectile was much greater. Both penetrated the frontal armor of the Panzer III at a 1000 yards, but the German round exploded inside the tank. In combat such an explosion would almost always set off the stowed ammunition.
With the approval of Middle East Headquarters, the new round was designated as the 75mm AP-Composite and conversion began at full speed. A total of about 17,000 rounds were converted of which 15,000 were the explosive loaded APCBC. The remianing 2000 were high explosive and smoke which were also modified as any reliable round was most welcome for the M3's gun. U.S. AP M72 and HE Mk 1 ammunition was used to provide the primed cartridge cases and propellant charges. Much of the old ammunition was found to contain variable weights of propellant so all the charges were dumped together, mixed, and re-weighed to ensure a uniform muzzle velocity.
The conversion took two to three weeks and the composite rounds were sent forward before the action opened on the Gazala line in late May. No information seems to be avaliable on what use was made of the new ammunition. About 6000 rounds were captured by the Germans in the dumps at Carpuzzo during the retreat to Alamein. They were then moved to the German base dump at Tobruk where they were recaptured the following year.
The sheer logistic support and supply infostructure during this ebb and flow conflict is mind boggling... and maybe the German use of HE loaded anti-tank ammunition was an important factor in the perceived notion of the British tanks 'brewing-up' more often than their German adversaries.

 

got an old book about 7 a/d in africa clearly showing jerry using matilda tnks,highly prized apparentley.

 

question for the veterans.

in films you see people rounding up enemy guns etc putting them in a pile and burning them.

i would have thought that any captured equipment like guns, granades Ammo tanks if re-painted would have been some use to you at the time or sent elsewhere were supplies may have been short.

like just before the fall off france the RAF bombed some of the French ships wouldnt it have been off some use to us as a gun battery in Gib or the channel or as an extra escort.

Going through an Escapers Report he was asked for the date and circumstances of capture. "Managed to evade capture 21/6/42 and made my way towards a 25pdr.that was in action. Was captured by the Germans who were using the gun."

 

during dunkirk the allies left behind


The Germans gained:

• 1,200 field guns
• 1,250 anti-aircraft guns
• 11,000 machine guns
• 25,000 vehicles

were the guns put into the atlantic wall and adapted to take there ammo and the vehicles used for transportation. were the uk truks even sent to the eastern front

thanks

 

during dunkirk the allies left behind


The Germans gained:

• 1,200 field guns
• 1,250 anti-aircraft guns
• 11,000 machine guns
• 25,000 vehicles

were the guns put into the atlantic wall and adapted to take there ammo and the vehicles used for transportation. were the uk truks even sent to the eastern front

thanks

Many of the AA weapons and the larger calibre captured guns were impressed in a coastal defence role. Jerry was a great re-user of captured kit, he often gave the material a specific designation eg. The british Q.F. 4-5in Howitzer Mk.2 was renamed 11.4 cm leFH 361(e). 96 captured in 1940 and then used in the Atlantic wall. Rather than alter the guns breech, usually ammunition was manufactured to fit the weapon.
Very many captured (beute) vehicles were used by the Germans mainly staying in Europe and North Africa but pictorial evidence does show ex-British and French stuff in the most unlikely places.

 

i belive jerry used many capured 3.7in aa guns against their former owners during the operations to clear the shelt estuary,with deadly effect.i cannot however remember the book.yours,lee

 

i belive jerry used many capured 3.7in aa guns against their former owners during the operations to clear the shelt estuary,with deadly effect.i cannot however remember the book.yours,lee
Well remembered Lee, in 'Battle for Antwerp' by Maj Gen J.L. MoultonWalcheren
202nd Naval Artillery Battalion
(Batteries are given the target numbers alotted by 84 Group RAF and subsequently used by all three British Services: German numbers in brackets.)
W7 (9/202) four 15-cm guns (5.9in) immediatly west of Flushing
W11 (8/202) four 15-cm guns in the dunes between Flushing and Zoutelande near Dishoek; close defence and flak not known.
W13 (7/202) four 15-cm with two 7.5-cm for close defence and three 20-mm flak in the dunes between Zoutelande and Westkapelle.
W15 (6/202) four ex-British 3.7 inch (9.4-cm) anti-aircraft guns captured at Dunkirk and now mounted against shipping with two ex-British 3-inch for close defence, mounted on the sea wall immediately north of Westkapelle.
W17 (5/202) four 22-cm guns (8.7-inch) with one 5-cm gun for close defence, immediately west of Domburg.
W19 (4/202) five ex-British 3.7-inch guns in the rolling dunes at the northern tip of the island near Oostberg.

 

Looking for some interesting colour schemes for an M3 halftrack. What colour would these be. Assume they are in North Africa. great pic too.

Kev

 

Great pics, seems to show some fire damage to the side.

 

I think your right. Had a look at the car. Does look in nice condition for North Africa, cant imagine many DAK officers had such a nice ride.

Accroding to Achting Panzer the DAK had shed loads of M3's. I reckon its as is. Need to look at US sand colours schemes

 

I feel a modelling opportunity coming on.


I wonder who makers a Horch staff car???

BTW has the M3 had the roller replaced with a fuel tank, cant make it out?

 

These are T-34's which are about to be repaired and updated with radio gear for Das Reich , after Kharkov in 43 they employed quite a number of refurbished Russian tanks.
(From The Battle of Kharkov Winter 1942-43 " By Restayn.)