Cap badge identification please

Discussion in 'WW2 Militaria' started by peterjankers, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Can anyone help with identifying the two cap badges shown?
    Badge 1 was taken in 1942 when my father was in 153 Regiment. It is not very clear, but looks more like a mailed fist than the Essex badge to me.
    Badge 2, I haven't a clue. After 153 my father went to 147, then 107, then 15th Recce.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  3. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Wow - that was quick and explains 107 Regiment.
    Am a bit confused about the first one though. I understood that 153 was allowed to keep their Essex badge. Does this mean that there was a mix of badges in the regiment?
     
  4. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    In quite a few images there are clearly Essex capbadges, unit War Diaries may help - but as far as I recall there was no mention of any change over in 153 RAC's material.

    Certainly (from my understanding) most images I've seen of pre-embarkation appear to be Essex Regiment in 153 RAC.
     
  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Could the mailed fist RAC photo have been taken whilst still training or just after training but before he was issued with his Essex badge?
     
  6. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Wouldn't have thought so - the date on the back of the photo is May 1942. He enlisted into the Essex July 1940.
     
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    Although they were converted as a unit, they probably wore the RAC badge while training under them.
     
  8. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    I guess his Service Records and RAC Tracer Card would confirm the whys and wherefores re dates/badges etc, in other words, a training period covering the time he wore the RAC mailed fist badge rather than the Essex badge.
     
  9. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    I have looked through 153 War Diary and the only mention I can find of cap badges is just before the regiment was dispersed when 107 agreed that those coming to them from 153 could keep their Essex badges.
    My father's service record is as follows:

    Posted to 153 Regiment 1.12.41
    Attached to 51 Training Regiment 10.12.41
    Attached to 43 Division Battle School 30.7.43
    Attached to Army Fighting Vehicle School 5.1.44
    Posted to 147 RAC 20.8.44

    What does 'attached' actually mean?
     
  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    The RAC mailed fist badge corresponds to his time with the 51st Training Regiment and is when that badge will have been worn. 'Attached' in this case most likely means that he was sent there for a time to train as Cavalry before returning to his designated Regiment. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will come along in a minute to correct me.
     
  11. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Assuming his mailed fist badge came from the 51st Training Regiment, would he still have been there almost six months later when the photo was taken?
     
  12. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Attached.
    Peter. will try to explain it in civilian terms.
    Imagine you are working in a bank,the Croyden Branch (153Reg)

    The bank decides that you need training in different banking systems.
    so you are sent to the Luton (51 T,reg) branch of the bank that does the training.
    There you would be classed as attached to Luton Branch (your records pay etc would still be retained at Croydon).
    once the training had finished you would be C.T.B.A ceased to be attached to Luton.
    You would then go back to your main job at Croydon.
    This could happen several times for training or for providing other branch's of the bank which are short of trained men as yourself.
    Eventually when your training was finished you would possibly offered a transfer to another branch of the bank, other then Croydon, where what you had been trained for would be more beneficial for the bank.
    or in Army parlance posted (153 Regiment to 147 RAC).(your records pay etc would then be transferred to that regiment).
     
  13. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Thanks RCG
    I have checked the 153 War Diaries and ORs seem to only spend a few weeks at 51 Training Regiment. My father was not attached to any other schools until July 1943. My question is why would he have been wearing the mailed fist badge at least six months after being attached to 51 TR?
     
  14. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    If it was this badge

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-2272-127255893539.jpg

    Then in theory it would have been issued to him when he was Posted to 153 Regiment 1.12.41. But conflicting evidence states that In common with other infantry battalions transferred to the Royal Armoured Corps, the personnel of 153 RAC would have continued to wear their Essex Regiment cap badge on the black beret of the Royal Armoured Corps.
    Note that his posting was the same day as when the whole brigade was converted into 34th Army Tank Brigade.
    So can only suggest that,that batch of posting were issued with that badge and were stuck with it all the time they were in the RAC.
    So he could be anywhere when the photo was taken.


    153rd RAC was formed by conversion to the armoured role of the 8th Battalion, Essex Regiment, a hostilities-only infantry battalion that had been raised during 1940. The battalion had been serving in 226th Independent Infantry Brigade (Home), a Home Defence formation, when the whole brigade was converted into 34th Army Tank Brigade on 1 December 1941. The regiment served in the brigade alongside the North Irish Horse and 147 RAC and later 151 RAC (later redesignated 107 RAC) when the North Irish Horse was transferred elsewhere.
     
  15. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    The photo is of him with my mother and me when I was a small boy, taken 27 May 1942 in the UK presumably when he was on leave.
    Does this mean that 153 had an assortment of cap badges - is that possible?
     
  16. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    No It would be either one or the other.
     
  17. peterjankers

    peterjankers Member

    Thanks to everyone for their input. Have now solved the mystery!
    On conversion 153 was initially forced to wear the Mailed Fist cap badge, but in 1943 with a change of command they reverted to the Essex badge.
     

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