Can We Be The First Forum to Crack This 1940 Mystery?

This is presumably the marriage you are talking of:
England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005 about William R Marshall
Name: William R Marshall
Spouse Surname: Lill
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1938
Registration district: Southwark
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 99
Find Spouse: Find Spouse


England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005 about Rosina G Lill
Name: Rosina G Lill
Spouse Surname: Marshall
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1938
Registration district: Southwark
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 99
Find Spouse: Find Spouse

Her birth cert:

England & Wales, Birth Index, 1916-2005 about Rosina G Lill
Name: Rosina G Lill
Mother's Maiden Surname: Cronin
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1918
Registration district: Southwark
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 23

1945 London Electoral - They are both shown as living at 33 Mawdley Buildings, Webber Row

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 about Rosina G Marshall
Name: Rosina G Marshall
Year: 1945
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Southwark
Street address: 33 Mawdf


1950 London Electoral (20 Nov 1949) - They are both shown as living at Algar Buildings, Waterloo Road, SE1

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 about Rosina G Marshall
Name: Rosina G Marshall
Year: 1950
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Southwark
Street address: 14 James




TD

 

Rosina's death cert:
England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007 about Rosina G Marshall
Name: Rosina G Marshall
Birth Date: abt 1883
Date of Registration: Sep 1957
Age at Death: 74
Registration district: Battersea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 55

TD

 

That's the one!

 

Sorry Guys,

Someone had this file out all day today, It was neither an advance order nor in the Kew copying service so l could not get hold of it and it was not returned or left in a locker so unable to see if he had a Liberation Questionnaire.

If there is one, it will pop-up somewhere soon.

Regards,

Nick

 

Nick, I had already ordered the liberation questionnaire and Queens' missing men files before I'd even posted here originally.
(I'd seen the letter floating around the net earlier and the propaganda angle triggered my interest).

Sadly no liberation questionnaire for W R Marshall. There were probably half a dozen W Marshall's but none of them were him.
The 'W R S Marshall' was a Welsh chap.

The Queen's missing men file turned up nothing either but the file didn't begin until Feb 1941, after his POW status would have been established.

I'm still hopeful he is the Queen's POW as that's the only prisoner listed with the exact initials. The missing men file did establish that his regimental number was low enough for him to have been with the BEF.

Incidentally the Queen's chap is not listed on any of the online POW databases as those are all based on the same incomplete late war records. He is on an earlier list but excluded from later ones; speculating that might indicate that either he was repatriated early or even died in captivity. Although I've checked the latter and he's not in the CWGC database. If repatriated that would explain why there's no liberation questionnaire in WO 344.

Lee

 

I too must apologise for not turning up any useful 1911 records at the library - what with one thing & another, just a brother & sister (19yo George & 18yo Elizabeth) at 128 Old Kent Rd, SE London (ref. RG14/01770/0051). Still I think we're now getting somewhere with the ER line of enquiry.

Re TD's Repulse query, here's its chronology showing it to be based at Scapa Flow from 22 Jun to 27 Jul - so probably indicative of another dead end unless he fell overboard during manoeuvres and was fished out of the drink by axis forces.

And don't forget that Rosina may well still be alive & kicking. I too found the same death registration as TD but rejected it as referring to someone far too old and was distracted by this coincidental red herring until I found that Rosina G's birth to debunk the remarriage it seemed to imply to a younger man:
* 1921 Q1 - birth index v1d p1205 - DANCER, Joseph - Wandsworth, London (mother DRAKE)
* 1925 Q4 - birth index v1d p929 - MARSHALL, Rosina G - Wandsworth, London (mother McDONALD)
* 1947 Q4 - marriage index v5d p2014 - DANCER, Joseph - Wandsworth, London
* 1947 Q4 - marriage index v5d p2014 - MARSHALL, Rosina G - Wandsworth, London
* 1990-08 - death index - DANCER, Joseph - Barking & Dagenham, Essex (b. 31 Oct 1920 so age 69)
* 1997-04 - death index - DANCER, Rosina Grace - Barking & Dagenham, Essex (b. 29 Sep 1925 so age 71)

In closing (best not list living folk here), just to add that the 1st likely child's birth was registered in 1946 Q1 - rather suggesting that he was conventionally liberated close to VE Day.

Steve

 

Cpl W R Marshall
6091461
Queens
Stalag 20B
PoW number 5655

 

No we know a regiment I'll scan through the Battalions 1940 war diaries for a mention. I have the regiments history as well, just in case.

A

 

I would point out that on being taken POW,according to the Geneva Convention,a prisoner need only give his name,service number and rank.The enemy had interogating skills or deceit in order to extract further information of a sensitive military military information.Some POWs would load their military and "CV" backgrounds with deviations from the truth to confuse the enemy.Giving the enemy,a POW's home address was not mandatory in relation to the G.C.

Some POWs gave information lightly during interrogation depending on their personality traits and loyalty.Subsequent POWs were intrigued by the knowledge that the enemy had,say in relation to RAF POWs,on Squadron C.Os,equipment,characters on the squadron and the local pubs which crews socialised in...all from loose talk and the incertainty of the future as a POW.

But overall if the POW gave his identity as required by the GC,any claim by the enemy to be holding a prisoner, a member of the British Forces, could easily be be checked by the War Office,the Admirality or Air Ministry by reference to their records.With the security standards in place during the war,it would be difficult for civilians to move address without the knowledge of the various government regulations..

Looking recently at a West Riding magazine,reflecting on the war period,it carries numerous news items of NOK being notified via the government departments that according to German wireless broadcasts,that their relation had been captured and in some cases gave the part of Germany where he was being held.Additionally some of this information was backed up by communication to the British Government by the IRCC. Sometimes the IRCC was first source of information of a relation being killed or confirmed as a POW after previously being declared as missing by his unit.

 

Dear Steve,

Thank You for Your information.

Regards, Robert

 

Found this tree on Ancestry, left a message for tree owner.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/37744709/family?cfpid=19212865872&selnode=1

 

Any chance you can enlighten us Alan? That link wants me to pay money to see what it is

 

I'll sort it when I get home on mobile at the moment.

 

Drew

As a non paid up member of Ancestry you would have to pay, however the basic details on the tree show:


William R Marshell
Birth 27 Sep 1878 in Rotherhithe, Surrey, England
Death 8 Sep 1940 in Camberwell, London, England

TD

Edited to add:
I somehow don't think this our man as he wasn't born on 30 Nov 1912 - and I can't see any other on that tree that would match the required details.

 

He'd be 62 and the oldest private in the British Army

 

Have now loaded two pictures of William R marshall, the first is his tree an arrow shows his place, the second shows comments made by previous members of Ancestry to try and contact "382hedgemans" without any luck, i sent him a private message but have had no reply.

 

William R Marshall on tricky's post is the brother of W R Marshalls DAD

 

The post on the Ancestry site by Chrissie563 saying he was a Welsh Guardsman is incorrect.

Although I was not able to confirm he was Cpl W R Marshall, 6091461, Queens, I was able prove he wasn't W R S Marshall.
W R S Marshall's liberation questionnaire shows a different date of birth and different private address in Wales.

​

Lee

 

Lets start again looking at the details we have 'found'

We are looking for a William Richard Marshall, from the 'letter' he was born 30 Nov 1912, and was presumably taken prisoner sometime in June or July 1940 (aged 28 ish). The letter was sent to 'The Occupier', 7 Algar Buildings, Webber Row, Waterloo Road, London SE1.


We have found a death cert for a W R Marshall (born 30 Nov 1912) who died in 1985, aged 72, Barking & Dagenham, Essex - this ties in the birth date.

Other sources have shown he might have been in the Navy 1935 - 1940 (HMS Repulse Service number J 87006) - if this was the case he presumably left the Navy in Jan/Feb 1940, enlisted in the Army, trained, was deployed with the BEF in April/May and captured in June/July 1940. The War Office letter indicates they are uncertain if he is a soldier, and if so what unit. Could it be that he was still in the Navy when captured??, which could be why the War Office are having trouble locating him in records as they presume he is Army?? - perhaps our naval experts could trace him by his naval service number.

We have a possible marriage to Rosina G Lill (1938 in Southwark)

We have a Rosina G Marshall and Willaim R Marshall in 1945 living in Mawdley Buildings, Webber Row

We have a Rosina G Marshall and William R Marshall in 1949 living in Algar Buildings, Webber Row

We have a death cert for a Rosina G Marshall in 1957 (in Battersea aged 74), but this shows she was born in 1883 - so in 1938 at the time of their marriage she would have been 55 (ish) and he would have been 26 (ish) - it is possible but it is likely??

I am trying to pull together what we have in one place

One thought crosses my mind in that, is the William R Marshall we are looking for the son of the marriage between (from the Ancestry tree) William R Marshall (born 1878 - died 1940 whose father was also called William R Marshall)) and Rosina G Lill (born 1883 - died 1957)

TD

 

TD, think you're getting into a muddle here.

Rosina G Lill was born in 1918, as you posted earlier.

The evidence is strong that our William Richard Marshall (born 1912) married Rosina G Lill in 1938.

(William R Marshall, born 1878 was his uncle).