Can someone explain the Battle of Bastonge?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by trumpetplayer992, Mar 1, 2006.

  1. Mullet94

    Mullet94 Senior Member

    I can still get a giggle out of some statements made by "junior American members" on their version of how Patton rode to the rescue of the 101st Airborne at Bastogne - which he did try with one armoured division and which the German 7th infantry army ignored and went on their way -

    and contrary to other claims that Monty came in at the end of that battle - in MY history book it states unequivically - that Monty on the first day of that incursion by three German armies -he was aware of their intent and by noon of that same day - he had alerted Horrocks of the XXX corps - who was on the coast and the Western side of the Canadian army - to move to the Meuse -

    Horrocks with his three divisons at the time then had to make his way OVER the administration "tails" of the three Canadian divisions plus two Polish divisions to arrive on the Meuse by the 21st dec - some four days after the beginning of the battle.

    On the way over Horrocks then picked up the extended ( 17,500 men) 51st Highland Div plus the 6th airborne and the 31st tank bde with their 17 pounders and the NEW 3.7 AA gun converted to Anti - tank use.

    At Celle - the 3.7's killed four Tigers without any trouble and the battle ended shortly after as the Germans finally had some competition and so withdrew with great losses
    -
    then Monty got on with the Veritable battle.. a bit disgusted with how Collins and
    Ridgeway had dis-obeyed his order to create a counter offensive with four divisions !!!

    Mind you - my history book was written in Britian - not Hollywood - or Southern Ireland !

    Cheers

    It's all lie's!! I watched Patton and he predicted the German attack through the Ardennes and had already started mobilising the 3rd Army before they had attacked. When all the Allied field commanders met only he was in a position to counter attack and all the other commanders just shrugged their shoulders and said they couldn't help. Hollywood said so, so it must be true. :p
     
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I can still get a giggle out of some statements made by "junior American members" on their version of how Patton rode to the rescue of the 101st Airborne at Bastogne - which he did try with one armoured division and which the German 7th infantry army ignored and went on their way -
    I'm quite certain that commander of the US 3rd Army was quite aware of the force needed and what was available and I am certain he understood the apparent size of a US Armored Division compared to other forces, especially those facing the relief force, which also consisted of the US 26th and 80th Infantry Divisions.
    and contrary to other claims that Monty came in at the end of that battle - in MY history book it states unequivically - that Monty on the first day of that incursion by three German armies -he was aware of their intent and by noon of that same day - he had alerted Horrocks of the XXX corps - who was on the coast and the Western side of the Canadian army - to move to the Meuse -
    I am not aware of any reputable historian who claims that Montgomery sat on his duff until the game was almost over. You will note that the northern shoulder of the bulge, the area around Butgenbach north to Monshau (the area to be enveloped by Dietrich's 6th Army), never moved any after 17 Dec, 1944 and that the timetable set for German forces moving west (Pieper, e.g.) was never at any time close to what was planned. US commanders had decided on 17 Dec to hold fast the shoulders until adequate forces could be marshalled to reduce the thrust. I have, however, heard reputable historians who state that Montgomery tried to claim responsbility for actions he had no part in. These statments are backed by historical records frequently published and I suspect that they are also found in the British Army records. There must be some validity to this, as a letter was penned by Montgomery to Eisenhower on Dec 30th to that effect.
    Horrocks with his three divisons at the time then had to make his way OVER the administration "tails" of the three Canadian divisions plus two Polish divisions to arrive on the Meuse by the 21st dec - some four days after the beginning of the battle.

    On the way over Horrocks then picked up the extended ( 17,500 men) 51st Highland Div plus the 6th airborne and the 31st tank bde with their 17 pounders and the NEW 3.7 AA gun converted to Anti - tank use.

    At Celle - the 3.7's killed four Tigers without any trouble and the battle ended shortly after as the Germans finally had some competition and so withdrew with great losses
    I appreciate the efforts of the British 3rd Royal Tank Regiment of the 29th Armoured Brigade at Celles. They fought well with the US 2nd Armored Division and portions of the the US 84th Infantry Divison in reducing the thrust by the 2nd Panzer and Panzer Lehr Divisions.

    I have yet to find where a Corps commander disobeyed an Army Group Commander during the time period you mention. Collins was asked to group a reserve corps (US VII), ready to attack when the Germans were exhaused, which was done. However, he had a fight placed in lap by the 2nd Panzer Divison & Panzer Lehr attacking north toward Marche and then north out of Rochefort, into the positioning VII Corps units. Were they to avoid battle and allow the 5th Panzer Army to occupy the southern half of the Condroz Plateau, thus flanking the US 1st Army postions to the east? As the threat to Collins' left flank began to build on the 24th of Dec, Montgomery suggested and authorized Collins to pull back to a line from Hotton to the town of Andenne, twelve miles from Namur. He authorized but did not necessarily advocate such a withdrawal, as he rightly concurred with US commanders there that it would dangerous maneuver, though the offer was there. After a later series of movements by German and US forces that same day, Montgomery gave Collins "unrestricted use of all of his troops."*

    a bit disgusted with how Collins and
    Ridgeway had dis-obeyed his order to create a counter offensive with four divisions !!!
    Was the counter offensive successful?
    Mind you - my history book was written in Britian - not Hollywood - or Southern Ireland !

    My history book was not written in Hollywood, either. I'm pretty certain that I don't have any history books that were written there.

    I feel confident that other regular members of this forum will attest to my even handedness when dealing with Field Marshal Montgomery and General Patton. I've never sought to belittle or demean Monty in anyway nor assign to Patton laudations he did not deserve. I understand that children will waltz in here with a distorted view of the war, but I feel that we are above engaging in petty discourses with them that do little to build up of the accomplishments of either commander. We are above that.

    I've said my peace.

    *A Time For Trumpets, MacDonald, 1985 page 580.
     
    A-58 likes this.
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Slipdigit -
    I am well aware of your veracity in all things historical and I respect you for that immensely - nevertheless Collins did dis-obey a suggestion (order from Monty his Commander at that time) to disengage and create a four division counter force - he did not - and prevailed upon Ridgeway to join him in the battle in which they were both mauled ....Monty had to start again to raise a counter force.

    My criticism was directed at younger members who have a twisted view of WW2 brought on - in the main - by revised history by noted historians for Hollywood and it's rewards - therefore I can appreciate truthul statements such as you always deliver
    there now -I've said my piece.....

    Cheers
     
  4. Mullet94

    Mullet94 Senior Member

    Charles Whiting's, Battle of the Bulge Britain's Untold Story has a good account of the British involvement for anyone who want's to learn some more about the battle.
     
  5. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Tom,

    I respectfully submit that he did create such a force (albeit with only the three divisions that were available) and that the battle was brought to him by German forces advancing north beyond what was expected at the time by Allied commands (Monty included) to the west of Marche. It was either fight them with the forces there (the VII Corps reserve) or retreat further up and off the high ground that overlooked the Meuse to the west and northwest and the US First Army rear positions to the east. That Montgomery offered no rebuttal on the 24th to Collins' (actually his subordinate) request to go over onto the offensive, to me cannot help but underscore Montgomery's agreement in the wisdom of VII Corps not digging in along the line from Marche to Dinant or further back at Andenne and Hoy, but instead moving forward and precipating the German debacle at Celles.

    Communications were so poor (they were using Belgian telephones and were having to use locally improvised code) that there was a great amount of confusion where the Germans were and what they were doing and then, when permission to advance was given to 2nd AD, where it was to go. This problem was between corps and division and division and combat command, I can only imagine the difficulties experienced between the the US Army and the British Army and how delayed information was in reaching the 21st AG. It was a similar difficulty in communication that delayed the withdrawal of US 422nd and 423rd Infantry Regiments (106th ID) from the Schnee Eiffel and resulted in their encirclement and loss a few days earlier.

    I cannot see that Gen Lawton Collins disobeyed any order. He reacted to an unalterable situation (the German advance north to the west of Marche) placed before him, in the manner that followed established US Army doctrine. When changing conditions necessitated a change in operations, Montgomery accepted the requests of the "man on the ground" and gave permission to Collins to go over onto the offensive. To me, Montgomery showed prudence in changing his plans in the face of an altered understanding of the battle as it was developing. The German defeat at Celles the next day underscores this idea.
     
  6. craftsmanx

    craftsmanx Junior Member

    While not doubting the veracity of 4 Wilts informant I have to say that as a former infanteer I was very rarely aware of anything that was happening outside my own platoon area. In fact I would have to say that for 90% of the time I was only vaguely aware of where I was because the only mapos I came into contact with only covered some 10 square kilometres.
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    While not doubting the veracity of 4 Wilts informant I have to say that as a former infanteer I was very rarely aware of anything that was happening outside my own platoon area. In fact I would have to say that for 90% of the time I was only vaguely aware of where I was because the only mapos I came into contact with only covered some 10 square kilometres.

    I was the same for me in Iraq in 2003. I keep promising myself I'll by a book one day that covers the whole picture.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  8. franklin77

    franklin77 Junior Member

    I I may quantify, Bastogne was an important road Junction that was needed by the Germans during the Ardennes Offensive, a last-ditch effort by the Third Reich to deliver a crushing blow in the West to buy time to face the Russians. It had nothing to do with retaking the Ardennes "before Patton could come to aid the 101st". The 101st was deployed to hold Bastogne as (a) it was an important junction and (b) even though lightly equipped the 101st was one of the few reserve units available at that time. I would aslo like to point out that Combat Command B of the (I believe ) 10th Armored Brigade was also in Bastogne and other assorted units so whilst the Defense of Bastogne was primarily undertaken by 101st, other units also contributed and this is sometimes overlooked. :cowboy_125:
    You are correct--CCB of the 10th Armored Division (one of Patton's I might add) was protecting the 3 of the 7 roads into Bastogne (NE, E, and SE)for hours before the 101st even got there against vastly superior numbers. If they hadn't held their ground, you would never have even heard of Bastogne as it would have been in German hands like all of the other towns in the Bulge.
     
  9. franklin77

    franklin77 Junior Member

    Thanks for clearing that up Jeff!! I wasnt sure which it was. My point still stands: that there were other forces in Bastogne helping the Defense of the Town.

    I know the early unit histories are a little "rah-rah!" but here is a section from the 10th Armored. Don't worry, the 101st version is just as self congratulatory...
    Lone Sentry: Terrify and Destroy: The Story of the 10th Armored Division -- WWII G.I. Stories Booklet

    "Stone of Bastogne" Blunts Nazi Blitz

    GREYING dusk shrouded Bastogne as CC B's lead Sherman tanks, tank destroyers and half-tracks rolled through the town Dec. 18. These were the first combat troops to reach the threatened city and before leaving they would write a glowing chapter in the history of World War II...

    Capture of Bastogne, hub from which seven main roads spread spoke-like in all directions, was essential to the swift movement of Rundstedt's panzers. Riding the crest of a 14-mile advance, five Nazi divisions knifed through blanket-like fog to strike CC B in the pre-dawn darkness of Dec. 19...

    For eight hours, CC B alone withstood the multiple blows of the Nazi's Hydra-headed attack. Then help arrived. First reinforcements of the 101st Airborne Div., which had moved into Bastogne under the screen of the 10th's actions, reached Desobry..."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A good account of the other units' contributions is John McManus's "Alamo in the Ardennes." Another harder to find book is "IMPACT! The Battle Story of the 10th Armored Division." It told of how censorship deleted the early credit due to CCB but allowed credit to be given to the 101st instead. Full disclosure: I am biased towards the 10th Armored as my grandfather was on the Eastern road to Longvilly "holding at all costs" while the 101st was still riding on trucks to get back to the front. The 101st deserves credit for their part in riding out the siege but Bastogne would have already been overrun by the time they got there if it hadn't been for CCB of the 10th Armored Division. They would have had to make their stand somewhere else, which I'm sure they would have done valiantly.

    Also, after the 101st was in place and surrounded, the remains of CCB that hadn't been killed or captured were right there with them helping them repel attacks as they came. Colonel Ralph Mitchell in his "101st Airborne Division's Defense of Bastogne" 101st airborne division's defense of Bastogne even admitted that had they just had light infantry without the help of their attached units with their tanks and tank destroyers, they would never have lasted until they were relieved. And yes, they were relieved. I don't think you say "Thank God you're here" when you have the situation in hand.
     
  10. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    In error
     
  11. APO472

    APO472 Junior Member

    First off thank you for your Grandfather’s service with the 10th Armored. They were a tough outfit. However, a few facts need to be set straight. The 101st Airborne’s Advance party arrived in Bastogne at the same time that Col. Roberts arrived. This was 1600 hrs of the 18th of December. Col Roberts was asked how many Combat Teams he could assemble. He replied 3. These were the lead team of LTC. Cherry, the 2nd was LTC. O’Hara and the 3rd was that of Maj. Desobry. Team Cherry was dispatched to Longvilly, Team O’Hara was sent to Wardin and Team Desobry to Noville. It should be noted that these decisions were based on the advice of LTC. Julian Ewell CO of the 501st who had visited Bastogne on several occasions and was a West Point Graduate and brilliant tactician (it should be noted that he actually had a lady friend that lived there). On the evening of the 18th Team Cherry moved to Longvilly. By the afternoon of the 19th the positions in Longvilly were no longer defendable and Team Cherry had to withdraw. The 501st arrived by 1400 and stabilized the situation. To the north in Noville Team Desobry task force had asked to with draw at 1030 hrs on the 19th but were told to “stay put”. 1/506th were in route and they would join the fight at 1430 hrs the same day. Templeton’s 705th Armored did not arrive in Bastogne until 2030 hrs on the night of the 19th.
    Point is (and let me be clear here) the CCB of the 10th fought bravely and valiantly but it took the 101st to stabilize the situation. Conversely, the 101st could not and would not have been able to maintain the situation in Bastogne without the help of the CCB of the 10th and other units that were trapped in Bastogne. It was a concerted, joint, TEAM effort! The 101st official unit history “Rendezvous With Destiny” sings the praises of the 10th Armored as well as the other supporting units that were present in Bastogne. As for the “censored” statement I don’t think that is the case. It is late here and I will have to look at the original Stars and Stripes as well as other vintage newspapers tomorrow but I seem to recall right off that the 10th teams were mentioned right along with the 101st. Hope this helps.
    On last thing. In 30+ years of researching the 101st one of my favorite comments came from Sgt. Lawrence “Bud” Walter who was the communications Sgt for 1/502nd. As he was walking into Bastogne they were passing a column of retreating US soldiers. One of the retreating soldiers said to his buddy next to him…”Look Mac, them’s Paratroopers! There’s going to be one hell of a fight!”
     
  12. APO472

    APO472 Junior Member

    First off thank you for your Grandfather’s service with the 10th Armored. They were a tough outfit. However, a few facts need to be set straight. The 101st Airborne’s Advance party arrived in Bastogne at the same time that Col. Roberts arrived. This was 1600 hrs of the 18th of December. Col Roberts was asked how many Combat Teams he could assemble. He replied 3. These were the lead team of LTC. Cherry, the 2nd was LTC. O’Hara and the 3rd was that of Maj. Desobry. Team Cherry was dispatched to Longvilly, Team O’Hara was sent to Wardin and Team Desobry to Noville. It should be noted that these decisions were based on the advice of LTC. Julian Ewell CO of the 501st who had visited Bastogne on several occasions and was a West Point Graduate and brilliant tactician (it should be noted that he actually had a lady friend that lived there). On the evening of the 18th Team Cherry moved to Longvilly. By the afternoon of the 19th the positions in Longvilly were no longer defendable and Team Cherry had to withdraw. The 501st arrived by 1400 and stabilized the situation. To the north in Noville Team Desobry task force had asked to with draw at 1030 hrs on the 19th but were told to “stay put”. 1/506th were in route and they would join the fight at 1430 hrs the same day. Templeton’s 705th Armored did not arrive in Bastogne until 2030 hrs on the night of the 19th.
    Point is (and let me be clear here) the CCB of the 10th fought bravely and valiantly but it took the 101st to stabilize the situation. Conversely, the 101st could not and would not have been able to maintain the situation in Bastogne without the help of the CCB of the 10th and other units that were trapped in Bastogne. It was a concerted, joint, TEAM effort! The 101st official unit history “Rendezvous With Destiny” sings the praises of the 10th Armored as well as the other supporting units that were present in Bastogne. As for the “censored” statement I don’t think that is the case. It is late here and I will have to look at the original Stars and Stripes as well as other vintage newspapers tomorrow but I seem to recall right off that the 10th teams were mentioned right along with the 101st. Hope this helps.
    On last thing. In 30+ years of researching the 101st one of my favorite comments came from Sgt. Lawrence “Bud” Walter who was the communications Sgt for 1/502nd. As he was walking into Bastogne they were passing a column of retreating US soldiers. One of the retreating soldiers said to his buddy next to him…”Look Mac, them’s Paratroopers! There’s going to be one hell of a fight!”
    Jake Powers
     
  13. franklin77

    franklin77 Junior Member

    My understanding was that the advance party was fairly small and that the main force didn't get in full position until well into the 19th. I don't dispute that the official histories give proper credit. Later analysis has focused more on one than the other for sure but I'm looking more at the modern perception of events in which the 10th is virtually forgotten.

    How do most people get their history today? For better or for worse, and as it has been lamented on this board, the modern perception of history is from the history channel and HBO. Look at the representation in the ever popular Band of Brothers--the full representation of the 10th Armored is Jimmy Fallon in a Jeep, retreating the scene as Easy Company rides to save the day. The 101st has had generations to build their legend and the 10th Armored disbanded in 1945. I admitted my bias and I will always be defensive for the perceived, if unintentional, slight.

    As for the "censorship" comment, that is from an excerpt in "IMPACT" in which the embedded war correspondent for the New York Daily News cited the disparity in credit as being a result of selective censorship. (p. 75)

    "Incidentally, it was the 10th Armored Division which met the German drive head-on outside Bastogne, threw it back on its heels and saved the city. The 10th Armored repulsed attack after attack in eight hours of continuous battle before the first elements of the 101st Airborne entered the city and joined in its defense. Ironically, the 101st got credit for the defense of Bastogne because censorship permitted it to be mentioned before the 10th Armored Division."

    The difference to me is that now you can buy 100 different books on the 101st defending Bastogne and I had to search for months for this now out of print volume and pay nearly $50 to get a reprinted version of it. Through no fault of its own, the 101st history is now etched in stone, passed down to current Screaming Eagles and Hollywood "history" buffs while the 10th Armored's history is passed down to no one and gradually fades with time.
     
  14. brithm

    brithm Senior Member

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