Can anyone ID these uniforms?

Hi all

Thanks for the help. I am going to apply for his service record and hope it includes a stint in Belgium in 44/5.

I also hope it shows he made sergeant, as I believe it's him dead centre front row with the 3 stripes.

His name is Stanley Robert Norcott, my mother's birth father.

Regards


Ian

 

Ian, if you haven't seen them already, some docs on him at the National Archives regarding his First World War service:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=Stanley+Robert+Norcott%2C

The RAF officer service record and medal card can be downloaded directly through their website. Although the Royal Flying Corps officer service correspondence in WO 339/110413 probably is the most detailed.

His Second World War records have to be obtained directly from the Ministry of Defence.

Lee

 

Hi Lee


Thanks for that. Yes, I already have the downloadable stuff.

Will be applying for the ww2 records as soon as I find the detail of how to do so (which I assume will be outlined somewhere else on this very helpful forum)


Kind regards



Ian

 

Ian,

Have a look here:
https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

 

"I also hope it shows he made sergeant, as I believe it's him dead centre front row with the 3 stripes."

Hmm. Looks a bit young to me. My second favourite is the man, back row, fourth from the right. Looking at your second picture of Mr Norcott, this chap looks to me like an older, grumpier version!

 

British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 about Stanley Robert Norcott
Name: Stanley Robert Norcott
Regiment or Corps: 33rd TRB, RFC & Royal Air Force
Regimental Number: 1707, 1707



TD

 

Hi Everyone

Thanks all for replies. Will attempt to wade through the MOD forms to apply!

Here's why I think Stanley is the one I think he is(?)




Kind regards



Ian

 

Hi Ian,

This is why I don't think it's your man.

As a Commissioned Officer he could not have been a Sergeant in 1944 barring some bizarre sets of circumstances. Going from Commissioned Officer (Pilot Officer,Flying Officer etc) to Non Commissioned Officer (Sergeant) would be a backward step to say the least.
Stanley Robert Norcott 77835 was commissioned as a Pilot Officer in the Administrative and Special Duties Branch (Administrative and Miscellaneous Duties) of the RAFVR on 3/3/1940 and was promoted to the rank of Flying Officer on 3/3/1941. Acting ranks excepted he seems to have stayed an F/O for the remainder of the war, the Air Force List has him still as an F/O in 1945 and I can find no Gazette entry of him relinquishing his commission which would have had to have happened if he was to cease being a Commissioned Officer.

You can search for his London Gazette and Air Force List entries via Ross McNeill's pages here

http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/gazettefinder/gazettefinderindex.html
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/Air_Force_List/aflfinderindex.html

The photo does not seem to show any Officers, who would have rank slides on their shoulders and wouldn't be wearing the eagle emblem or any of the other insignia on show in the photograph.


Rgds

Pete

 

Oh... That's interesting... And a little... Disconcerting!

But it's also exactly why I came on this forum in the first place.

I will get his service record, but if the RAF list still has him as you say in 1945, then it' s highly unlikely the serjeant is him.

Is there anyone else in the shot who might be of the required rank?

Regards


Ian

 

Eliminating who definitely isn't an officer on account of their insignia we are left with ten men who we can't tell what rank they are, normally you would expect if there was an officer amongst them for him to be seated at the front showing some sign of authority rather than mixed up in the back rows with the other ranks.



Is it possible that F/O Norcott took the photo and that is why he doesn't seem to appear on it.

 

Looking at the photo of Norcott aged about 35, the only man in the photograph who could possibly be him, 10 years older, is the man standing right in the middle behind the sergeant.

That said, however, I think snailer could well be right about Norcott being the photographer.

Even looking at the ten men in the photograph not ruled out in red, none is wearing wings or First World War medal ribbons. Given Norcott's previous service, I would expect his medal ribbons to appear above his left (our right) breast pocket, whether or not he chose, or was allowed, to wear his wings. And none has any visible sight of rank slides on their shoulders or rank ribbons round the cuffs of their battle dress.

So Norcott is in the picture only if he is wearing an other ranks battle dress for some inexplicable reason instead of his own.

 

Interesting theories - thanks all!

I'm assuming that if this was taken on active service (eg. in Belgium, after D Day) medal ribbons would not be worn? Or... ?

I'm still convinced he's the one in the middle. But why would he wear the Serjeants Uniform?

Except he was an exceedingly devious character. This photo was sent to the mother of his 2 children out of wedlock (born 8 years apart, while he still lived with his wife and other child). Perhaps he was hiding the fact he was technically an officer, from her?

Oh for a time machine to go and ask Stanley himself...


Regards



Ian

 

Forgetting the uniforms for a minute, the man bottom right is not the man bottom left ten years later. His hair and eyebrows have grown a lot darker and thicker in that time when you would have expected the opposite to happen, also look at the lips, full, especially the bottom lip on the first three pictures but flat and narrow on the last.
Not the same man to my eyes, sorry.

 

Just picked up this thread.

I would say that the photograph is a group of either Air Radar/Wireless Mechanics or Ground/ Radar Wireless Mechanics.The trade flash is not very distinctive but is sufficent to indicate connection with the radar and wireless trades.The flash was amended to some degree after the war but was findamentally unchanged when I was entitled to wear it as a Air Radar Mechanic in the early postwar RAF.

From the number in the group,most likely,It is a photograph of a particular groundcrew Wireless servicing section belonging to a 2nd TAF squadron.There appears to be a Corporal in the front row,third from the right....the front row being the location for those in charge,say of officer rank or NCO rank.(I cannot see a Sergeant but that be my problem)

I would say that the Corporal was the senior man in this section photograph as there appears to be no other SNCO or Officer included but these would be within the command structure but are obviously not in the photograph.....the photograph.... an ad hoc photograph of the group who worked together and not a formal photograph.

Further,I would say that the group is of AC 1s at the best with the Corporal outlined. Any airmen not wearing the trade flash would be of AC2 rank.

Notice that this is a group that are at the workface of groundcrew serving for a squadron...all in working blue with some wearing the leather jerkins which gave first class protection against the weather when working out in inclement weather...... standard protection available to wear as the case may require

 

Hi Harry,
I'm not convinced with the 'Sparks' flashes, look at this chap I found on google for an example of wearing Eagle, Sparks and LAC propellor badge/patches.


The men in the group photo seem to me to be just wearing the Eagle and Propellor.



Pete

 

Yes,I think the clarity of the photogragh showing a LAC in best blue with the radar/wireless flash rules out the group as being belonging to that trade group.

So it looks like that the group are a groundcrew group with a few LACs shown.....pity that the oriiginal photograph was not capable of being "blown up" so that the LAC flash might be more readily identified.

 

Hi All


Once again, thanks for all the comments and thoughts.

I now have seen a picture of the back of the photo, so can tell you where the suspicion about it being taken in Belgium comes from...



No date, unfortunately.


Kind regards




Ian

 

Hi Again


I've also found this page, which lists many of the known airfields in Belgium during the period in question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Landing_Ground#Benelux_Liberation

Are there any clues - very long shot, I guess - as to which (if any) location it might be narrowed down to?


Regards




Ian

 

More info.

The photo came in an envelope, which went through war service mail. The postmark is a little obscured, but does show a date of 9/44 - which fits with the Belgium possibility.

There is also a name, rank & serial number on the flap. It reads 926051 LAC Bishop G, RAF - so it may not be Norcott in the photo at all!

Of Mr Bishop, we know nothing. Can anyone point out the LACs in the photo? Especially any who are "third one in".

Short of trying to send for his service records (hard as I'm not NOK) can anyone point me in the direction of any info that can be gleaned using the serial number. I know my way round ww1 research but this is new to me.

Kind regards for all your help so far.




Ian

 

Hi Ian,

The mystery deepens.
926051 Bishop is George William Bishop, these details are in AIR 78/15


From that you can check here http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?27-RAF-RAF-OR-Service-Numbers to see, roughly, when he joined the RAF, in his case he was in the intake at Uxbridge that started in September 1939.
LACs are the ones with the propellor badge halfway up the arm but as you can see most of the men who are "Third one in" have their arms obscured.

Pete