Here's one I'm struggling to find reliable info on, so I'm hoping our resident tank experts might be able to help: Re. the consignment of M3 Grants shipped to the Western Desert in spring of '42: 1) Were these shipped from the US factories to the UK (and from there on to Egypt?) Or were they shipped directly from the US to Egypt, along with US training and maintenance crews? 2) On the journey from the UK to North Africa, British tanks needed to have their batteries removed and recharged onboard ship. But the M3s had an onboard auxiliary generator to charge the batteries, so would these still have been recharged during the long sea journey to Egypt, and if so, was it by using the tanks' own onboard generators? (I believe the Grant had two batteries wired in series, so I'm guessing they would have been a pain to remove anyway?) I've read a little bit on the maintenance of British tanks during the trip to North Africa but nothing on the US ones. Thanks to any who can help!
No expert here, but this site has a great amount of raw data to thumb through. I do believe the Grant/Lee models were shipped directly from the plants to the MTO by the US, and not diverted to the British Isles beforehand. Goto: United States' M3, M3A1, M3A2, M3A3, M3A4, M3A5 Medium Tanks - World War II Vehicles, Tanks, and Airplanes and goto the the main site to look at the various versions and models for more info.
I remember reading in the past the the tanks delivered to the 8th Army in the Western Desert were originally earmarked for the 1st and 2nd US Armored Divisions when FDR stepped in and re-directed them to the British. Also later in the same article I learned that the engines were shipped separate from the tanks, in separate ships. One of the ships carrying the engines got sunk by a U-Boat along the way. Another shipload of engines were dispatched ASAP to replace the lost shipment. The US armored divisions had to keep on using those trucks with the sign "tank" posted on them for a little longer. I'm sure that they were happy about that. Don't pin me down on where I read this, since it was back in the 70s when I was still in high school....
M3s sent to Africa were a mix of US pattern 'Lees' and UK spec 'Grants'. David Fletcher in 'The Great Tank Scandal' has them being shipped directly to the Middle East from 'early 1942' onwards, along with a detachment of American Instructors. I'm not sure I've seen that many shots of M3s in the UK, but seem to recall pictures of Desert workshops fitting sand-shields etc. to Grants still bearing US factory markings. However, a quick shufti on IWM collections reveals these 2 shots: PHOTOGRAPHER: Barker (Lieut) No 1 Army Film & Photographic Unit THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE MIDDLE EAST 1942 New Grant tanks being loaded from a ship onto a "Z" craft which will then take them ashore, 13 March 1942. Taylor (Lt)War Office official photographer THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45 American M3 Grant tanks being unloaded from ships at a British port, 29 June 1942. Captions are rarely conclusive perhaps, but maybe the overall answer is 'both'... but there's not really enough detail in either caption to give a certain answer. The Middle east shot would certainly show Grants destined for action, but the UK ones could just as easily be for trials/evaluation. And the area they've been shipped from is not stated.
The US armored divisions had to keep on using those trucks with the sign "tank" posted on them for a little longer. I'm sure that they were happy about that. Most happy when told they were to shout Bang! for firing practice. :sign_rofl:
I'd be interested in the relative numbers of Grant types shipped versus Lees. The Grants would certainly always have been destined to go to British Units, with only the Lees perhaps being diverted from American usage. I seem to recall that the more famous diversion of Armoured US vehicles to British use in the period was the first M4s that went to Alamein as 'Swallow'. Whatever, the tanks were sent to the area of greatest need, and when you look at the frictions generated between the UK purchasing commissions and US Industrial and military organisations at the time it's a credit to all involved that the overall allied operational requirement took priority in the end. Terry Gander, another reliable author, also has Grants being sent direct: "As sufficient tanks came off the lines they were shipped direct to Egypt where they arrived in time for the 1942 Summer & Autumn battles against the axis forces in North Africa. As early as May 1942 the 4th armoured brigade had a strength of 167 Grants" ... "By the end of October 1942 some 600 M3 series tanks, both with the 'British turret' [Grants] and in Standard form had been delivered to the British Army" Tanks in Detail 4 - Medium Tank M3-M3A5, Terry Gander
According to 'Jane's WWII tanks & fighting vehicles', by Leland Ness. The numbers of M3 Lee's produced in 1941 was 1,033 compared to 309 Grants. In the following year the numbers were 2,915 Lees and 667 Grants. I can't find a number showing the number of Lees supplied to the British though. Ah, here's something. From the same source. The Commonwealth received 229 Grants in 1941, of which 62 were sent to the UK and 167 direct to the Middle East. In 1942 we got sent 1,522 Grants and 900 Lees, along with 4 M4 Sherman I's, 264 Sherman II's, 385 Sherman III's, 1 Sherman IV and 129 Sherman V's. A total of 3,205 medium tanks. Now somethings wrong.. as only 287 medium tanks arrived in the UK, 1,213 in the Middle East and 30 in Persia/Iraq. A total of only 1,530. Now the table states that it does not include "other Empire shipments" but it is still less than half of what was sent. Some must have been sent to India and Australia? Were some shipped via Canada? Maybe some arrived in 1943? and some were undoubtably lost, but the figures still appear to be a long way out.
A lot of M3s must have gone to the Aussies if the amount that seem to turn up on their scrapyards/farms etc. is anything to go by. They seem to have thought there were enough chassis to Justify Yeramba too, even though only a handful were actually built. But I imagine a lot of these vehicles came home from the Desert, Burma, etc. so they're not really good evidence of factory-fresh vehicles making it there... Hmm, wonder if there's anything in Wheels & Tracks.
IIRC David Fletcher's Osprey book on the M3 gives the amount that went to the Aussies, but I don't have my copy to hand...
I'm sure a number of them got sent to the bottom of the ocean due to u-boat interference, along with a lot of other assorted lend-lease material. The time frames in shipping listed was a particularly active period in the Battle of the Atlantic, wasn't it? Just an idea.
Thanks to all for the links and info. It seems the majority of lend-lease AFVs were shipped directly to the relevant theatres, along with support crews. As a sidenote, does anybody have links/pictures/info on the transport ships used to carry British tanks over to Egypt before the advent of the US-made LSTs?
Most happy when told they were to shout Bang! for firing practice. :sign_rofl: Funny you mentioned that. We had to do that from time to time in the late 70s due to "budget restrictions." It was something to see, entire batallions lined up, simulating firing at each other, yelling "bang, bang, bang" at the top of our lungs before charging headlong into each other. I'm just glad we didn't have to simulate the parachutes!
Do I qualify as a "M3 Grant expert" or was the Stuart tank a completely different beast ? Technicalities were never my strong point I'm afraid that even if I do qualify, I can't bring much to this thread except my original thoughts on seeing this bloody tank that had lost its turret !!! http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/veteran-accounts/16716-while-i-remember.html Ron
